ICE to deport international students at colleges and universities that have gone online for COVID

[Happytimes2001]

I have to laugh when I read about racial superiority of any group. Has anyone here actually attended some of the schools mentioned? There are still 80-85% of totally capable and intelligent American students and 15% of capable and intelligent International students. Zero difference between the groups. No race is smarter than any other. And Nobel’s don’t prove anything.
There are also many Americans and internationals who are thoroughly qualified but don’t have the resources to attend. If you look across these groups many are from the high SES for their country. They have built in advantages.
There are many international students Who are still hoping it works out for them. As there are many American students for whom Covid is also a big factor.
People go to the colleges that are best for them. They are not doing anyone a favor and they are not irreplaceable. At all.
I doubt anything can be done about the ICE ruling before Sept. I feel badly for Freshmen since they seem to be the most at risk.

[LimboKid]

@“Cardinal Fang” True that. Also, internationals must prove source of funds like savings, scholarships, etc. Not as easy as some might think.

@Happytimes2001 Agree with most of your points except:

1. “Domestic vs International” is a xenophobic vs. xenophilic debate, not a racial one. The world has many races, domestic or foreign. An American of 100% Irish descent and and Irish from Ireland are of the same race, for example, but the latter an international student.

2. Not just freshmen. ICE says whoever returning to 100% online fall term must leave the country or “face removal procedures”. Those already escaped the US lock down in March with visas will see their visas canceled. Grad students too. So everyone foreign is at risk beginning Sep 1.

[BunsenBurner]

.

@Cardinal_Fang

@CU123

If Harvard wins this case what is to prevent any and everyone from applying for a student visa by simply signing up for an online course at ANY university in the U.S.

The existing rules would prevent this. Getting a student visa is a good deal more difficult than you appear to believe.

To get an F-1 Visa, the student first has to be accepted at an SEVP-approved school.

Then, the student has to get a Form I 20 from their school, which attests that the student will be a full-time student at the institution.

You could literally have millions of people applying for student visas based on taking an online course.

You couldn’t, for the reasons I state. Please don’t spread inflammatory rumors without checking whether they are true.

To add to what CF said, a student applying for an F-1 visa also has to provide documentation of sufficient funds to cover living expenses and educational expenses so that the person will not become a public charge. It is not as simple as signing up for a couple of online basketweaving classes and then getting the passport stamped.

[austinmshauri]

roycroftmom wrote: »
If it was that important to the universities, they would solve the ICE problem next week by their own action. That many choose not to do so is quite interesting.

Colleges in NYS don’t have that authority. They can only open in person if the governor says they can, and that decision won’t be made until the first week in August.

[vpa2019]

I hope ICE will agree to permit all international undergraduate students in the US to remain from now until June 30, 2021. All international students currently abroad can remain abroad for the school year since logistically it will be difficult to get their visas processed before August/September 2020 not to mention living arrangements etc… Seems like a common sense compromise.

[Alezzz]

@Caligorilla

@Alezzz Your example is not representative of the actual situation. You are saying that since American kids are American, they have to give up the Ferrari to the International kid since they will always be American and have that advantage once this is over. So their suffering should be less of a priority than the international kids’ suffering. I think you are also saying the American kids are bound to the US as an entity in that they too should honor the deal made by US colleges to international students. As if they are all one (American students and colleges). BUT that is simply not the case. All students were offered a deal and because of vivid, that deal cannot be honored. The American student has no reason to step aside for the international student or vice versa. We are not one big collective honoring a deal with people from elsewhere. The students are all in the same boat. They have all purchased a car that they cannot take full ownership of for at least a year. If you don’t want that deal, it’s understandable but that is the only deal now on the table.

I never told that American students must give up to International students. Just because my opinion is that issue is between International students and American government, and between American universities and American government. Not between American students and International students.
I don’t see in ICE determination to deport students nothing related to American students.

[LimboKid]

@Alezzz is right. Not domestic vs foreign kids. We love internationals here!

@austinmshauri is correct. Power to approve or disapprove reopening lies strictly within the state capitol (state funding as well). However, federal government could delay releasing funds to any schools. They don’t have to even speak to the schools. All they need to do is put a stay on direct loans or indirect guaranteed loans from federal agencies “for further review”. Federally-sponsored tuition, research and other capital funding halt right away. It will piss the world off and put kids, faculty and schools in limbo. Historically it almost never came down to this after JFK days. Nevertheless, seeing how ICE is putting a good chunk of 1 million+ international students in limbo to force all universities to reopen (albeit 100% legal according to the letter of the law), no one knows what might eventually transpire…

[Knowsstuff]

This thread is really confusing me. If we have American kids in college they should be driving a Ferrari.? ?. It’s my favorite car but I, the parent, can’t afford it. I am such a loser! ??.

[1NJParent]

@LimboKid

@1NJParent Ability to attract talent has always been relative. As long as we continue to have the world’s highest real GDP growth and an economy expanding faster than anyone in Europe, Asia or the Americas, we will continue to attract talent. More, or less will depend on job prospects and hard economic facts. Let’s please not turn political and point fingers at this administration or past administrations as if they are/were the cause of all evils. Maybe in dictatorships we can, but not in our land of the FREE.

Sure, our ability to attract talents is always relative and that ability is RELATIVELY declining. Of course, we still attract more than our fair share of international talents, but more of them have chosen other alternatives in recent years as we become less hospitable and pay gaps have narrowed. It’s undeniable that this administration with its self-proclaimed “America First” policy has kept some of these international talents away from this country or alienated them.

[LimboKid]

Nice long experience-sharing piece from NYTimes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/11/style/harvard-students-coronavirus.html

[Caligorilla]

@Alezzz
I think you compared American students to the son of the car dealer getting to keep (unfairly) the Ferrari bought by the international student. You thought the international Ferrari buying student should be given the Ferrari instead because he made a deal with the dealer (American govt/universities) and the son, being one with the father, had less of a right to it since he had a duty to honor his father’s promise to the international student. At any rate, both will get a lesser car, and neither has a right to a Ferrari over the other. Both groups bought an education, and both will be likely getting that education online from home. Wherever home may be

[LimboKid]

Let’s not forget MA has a 14-day self-quarantine requirement which I assume H has to comply with. That’s for humans from anywhere except New England, New York and New Jersey.

https://www.mass.gov/doc/covid-19-travel-advisory-july-1-2020/download

[Caligorilla]

@in

@1NJParent

@LimboKid

@1NJParent Ability to attract talent has always been relative. As long as we continue to have the world’s highest real GDP growth and an economy expanding faster than anyone in Europe, Asia or the Americas, we will continue to attract talent. More, or less will depend on job prospects and hard economic facts. Let’s please not turn political and point fingers at this administration or past administrations as if they are/were the cause of all evils. Maybe in dictatorships we can, but not in our land of the FREE.

Sure, our ability to attract talents is always relative and that ability is RELATIVELY declining. Of course, we still attract more than our fair share of international talents, but more of them have chosen other alternatives in recent years as we become less hospitable and pay gaps have narrowed. It’s undeniable that this administration with its self-proclaimed “America First” policy has kept some of these international talents away from this country or alienated them.

I am More inclined to agree with @limbokid. All students at elite schools are replaceable. The idea that elite schools go wanting for talent may have more to do with their emphasis on selecting kids who follow a particular predictable formula to gain admission. Good grades, impressive and:or numerous extracurriculars, high test scores, etc.,. Many are bland in their cookie cutter profiles, and few are the truly exceptional. International students have learned the ropes and are the same. These are not Einsteins generally. More typically they are wealthy kids who’ve been groomed in boarding private schools with the intention of going to college in the US

[Knowsstuff]

@Caligorilla

@Alezzz
I think you compared American students to the son of the car dealer getting to keep (unfairly) the Ferrari bought by the international student. You thought the international Ferrari buying student should be given the Ferrari instead because he made a deal with the dealer (American govt/universities) and the son, being one with the father, had less of a right to it since he had a duty to honor his father’s promise to the international student. At any rate, both will get a lesser car, and neither has a right to a Ferrari over the other. Both groups bought an education, and both will be likely getting that education online from home. Wherever home may be

OK. I had one beer that’s all but this makes absolutely no sense to me. Might have to have another just to understand this ??.

[ucbalumnus]

Reducing international students could have an effect on the US’ overall trade deficit (education currently produces a substantial trade surplus):
https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2019/01/the-education-trade-balance/

[LimboKid]

@ucbalumnus … Yep, loss of a good chunk of $45B a year…

[roycroftmom]

Have you ever driven a Ferrari, @knowstuff? Dreadful car. Hard to get in and out of, ridiculously noisy, and there isn’t much room for anything besides a briefcase. Plus they spend more time in the shop than in your garage! I will prefer a Honda any day .

[Knowsstuff]

@roycroftmom

Have you ever driven a Ferrari, @knowstuff? Dreadful car. Hard to get in and out of, ridiculously noisy, and there isn’t much room for anything besides a briefcase. Plus they spend more time in the shop than in your garage! I will prefer a Honda any day .

Noooo… Don’t ruin my dream
One day will rent one at a classic auto place.

[twoinanddone]

@LimboKid

@ucbalumnus … Yep, loss of a good chunk of $45B a year…

They can still take classes, but they will send their tuition money to Harvard and take their classes online, just like all the other Harvard students will. Schools that are having in person classes will still get the tuition, even if the student can’t get to the US. Most of that $45B will still make it to the US.

If the international students decide not to come, maybe they’ll come next year.

[1NJParent]

@Caligorilla

@in

@1NJParent

@LimboKid

@1NJParent Ability to attract talent has always been relative. As long as we continue to have the world’s highest real GDP growth and an economy expanding faster than anyone in Europe, Asia or the Americas, we will continue to attract talent. More, or less will depend on job prospects and hard economic facts. Let’s please not turn political and point fingers at this administration or past administrations as if they are/were the cause of all evils. Maybe in dictatorships we can, but not in our land of the FREE.

Sure, our ability to attract talents is always relative and that ability is RELATIVELY declining. Of course, we still attract more than our fair share of international talents, but more of them have chosen other alternatives in recent years as we become less hospitable and pay gaps have narrowed. It’s undeniable that this administration with its self-proclaimed “America First” policy has kept some of these international talents away from this country or alienated them.

I am More inclined to agree with @limbokid. All students at elite schools are replaceable. The idea that elite schools go wanting for talent may have more to do with their emphasis on selecting kids who follow a particular predictable formula to gain admission. Good grades, impressive and:or numerous extracurriculars, high test scores, etc.,. Many are bland in their cookie cutter profiles, and few are the truly exceptional. International students have learned the ropes and are the same. These are not Einsteins generally. More typically they are wealthy kids who’ve been groomed in boarding private schools with the intention of going to college in the US

Of course, most international students aren’t truly exceptional, even though an average international student is probably more talented than an average domestic student because of self-selection. However, unreasonable restrictions such as ICE’s recent action will likely keep those few truly exceptional students from coming to the US to study and potentially stay here to make this country more vibrant economically and culturally.