@Caligorilla your portrayal of students at elite schools is a bit dated. At Harvard, for instance, the majority come from public schools. Financial aid is provided to 55%, 20% go for free, and the average parental contribution is $12k. Grades, stats, and multiple conventional EC’s don’t tend to gain admission.
Back to our regularly scheduled program: some schools that were planning on being all online are now looking at holding in-person classes for the purpose of enabling international students to stay. Many grad/doctoral students are living their lives here at the moment.
@compmom
Are these the stats for international students? I think many are trained in the admissions game and are not Einstein’s Also, some get FA, but the typical international student is wealthy. Btw, I am for letting them come, I just dislike the dramatic appeals and over statements. @INJparent it is just not true that the average international student is more exceptional than the average American. The self selection has more to do with class you come from and parental ambition. Do you know any college students?
Of course, I do. Do you? At what types of colleges?
Anyway, I never said an average international student is exceptional, by any measure. S/he is just relatively a better student than an average American student because of self-selection (educational background, parental background, family finances, etc.)
Only a few ( as in, less than a dozen) colleges meet full need for international undergrad students, so it is safe to say that for 99% of foreign students here, they or their governments are full pay. All of these students had higher education options in their home countries, which were usually free or very low cost. While I welcome their presence, it is indisputable that they are acquiring a luxury item in a US college education, and are much wealthier than the average US student, for whom greater aid is available. I hope they are able to arrive, but if not, they can likely procure fine choices in education or alternate activities.
Imagine what happens when thousands of kids from CA, FL and TX descend upon the 35 colleges in the Greater Boston area or 75+ colleges in the Greater New York City area. They might as well test who doesn’t have the virus by October. The schools can control whatever happens on campus. But unless they lock us up like in real prisons, there’s no way for any control or monitoring of who goes where to see/make friends. From a few news reports, some summer school kids are holding parties to celebrate getting the virus so now they have immunity to do whatever they want. Maybe my mom is right, a ticking virus time bomb this fall…
That’s actually not true, I think you are confusing “need-blind” with “meet full need”. My daughter’s full need was met (over 60k per year worth of aid, offered from 3 different schools, and she has a good profile but not HYMP-like), and at least another 30 from her school are going to different colleges in the US with similar or higher aid (many have full-ride scholarships), but only 1-2 to Ivies+.
At least over half of the top 50 LACs and many, many more Universities (Private ofc) can be very generous with internationals within their various budgets. It is true though that they are a minority, last data I saw from a few years back said that well over half of internationals are full-pay.
For example, all the NESCACS, and pretty much all the more famous Vermont/Maine/NH schools like Bowdoin, Bates, Middlebury, Colby etc do so. In MA all the women colleges, Tufts, Brandeis etc…
Many of my daughter’s classmates come from poor countries, and middle-low income families, and they would have struggled for quality/opportunities in their educational systems home. Those are the kids that could get seriously hurt by ICE if schools are forced online by Covid in the next few months.
" S/he is just relatively a better student than an average American student because of self-selection (educational background, parental background, family finances, etc.)"
What evidence do you have of this? If it’s test scores, you should know that cheating on the tests is commonplace if not prevalent in many parts of Asia, maybe other parts of the world as well. Family finances should not be used to determine who the better student is.
“All of these students had higher education options in their home countries, which were usually free or very low cost.”
Again we should separate out, I think, undergrads and graduate students, the latter do not really have great options at home, and that’s why most international students here are graduate.
I don’t think anyone here really is that concerned about international students will experience hardship if not permitted to US schools. I agree with you, those students will do just fine in their own country. And if they were poor but smart enough to get aid from the US, they will be getting full aid from their own country. The argument was more of a loss for us - short term loss of income for universities and long term loss of talents for the country as a whole.
Yes, it would be a loss. I am more concerned that a substantial percentage of US high school seniors no longer expect to go to college due to COVID. That is an enormous loss too.
I also am concerned about the education of the US’s K-12 students. But barring international students in American colleges is not going to solve any problems for American K-12 students getting a worse education because of covid. I don’t see how bringing up US K-12 is going to help us think about what to do about international students.
@theloniusmonk “If it’s test scores, you should know that cheating on the tests is commonplace if not prevalent in many parts of Asia, maybe other parts of the world as well.”
This is not a fair statement at all. Yes, I read the same news like you about cheating at standard tests in foreign countries. But I’m also aware how nearly 100 US parents helped their kids cheat at tests from the Operation Varsity Blue case alone. FBI already said OVB was not the end of it. They are venturing into other organized cheating investigations unconnected to Singer.
To identify any kids achieving high scores, domestic or international, as presumptuous cheaters is very cruel and unwarranted.
Sure there are cheaters in the US no doubt, but I was disagreeing with the statement below:
" S/he is just relatively a better student than an average American student because of self-selection (educational background, parental background, family finances, etc.)"
I don’t think an international student is “better” than a domestic student. That’s pretty presumptuous too.
@theloniusmonk I agree with: “I don’t think an international student is “better” than a domestic student.” But calling anyone with good scores presumptuous cheaters is incorrect and insensitive.
@LimboKid There are examples of cheating across the board. In Asia, they have modified testing ( you can google for examples). In the US, you have examples like varsity blues. The college board tries hard to stop cheating. This year the AP’s were modified a lot to prevent real time cheating via texting. It’s sad and not very common. Most who fo well, don’t cheat.