@Happytimes2001 I saw the same news feeds back then. As for college board, don’t get me started. That’s for another forum. Agree that “most who do well, don’t cheat.” Foreign or domestic.
Per your own report, your daughter was joined by 30 of her classmates in gaining acceptance to US colleges with FA.
These are kids who are hooked into a system that grooms them for this path. I’m sure they’re great kids, but the fact that they are not the upper upper crust of your country does not mean they are more exceptional. I think in any setting there are few truly exceptional people
My point being that claims that asking international students to do online classes during a raging pandemic (in US ) will result in universities filled only with American dolts is just silly. I think the kids who can support themselves here in private housing can go home for a semester like everyone else. Universities going fully online are doing so for the health of everyone.
And what is “home” for a 32 year-old international student doing doctoral work, who has been here for 10 years?
It is the country on his passport. That’s what he agreed to 10 years ago when he asked to come here to study. The number one reason for student visas to be denied is that the applicant says “I want to study in the US and become a citizen and work there for the rest of my life.”
I think it’s wherever they hail from. It’s not forever. It’s a bump in their careers. Same for all students. Whether you’re flying home to NYC from Standford or to China. The idea is to reduce people on campus. They will come back, and may be much safer at home. I almost think people don’t understand the magnitude of this problem, particularly for universities bringing thousands of kids together in residential settings with older educators. Look at the rising numbers. Covid did not wait for the Fall, and we have no idea how this will go over the coming months.
Also have no leadership.
[Facts] ICE lawsuit is next Tue 3pm (7/14). Presiding Judge is H-friendly.
[Prediction (not wish)] Defendants will seek “dismissal or stay” due to lack of time-span evidence of violation of APA. If granted, they will drag it out into Sep because in Aug Congress and most courts are adjourned for summer vaca. Even if H gets a temporary injunction, that’s for 10 days only. And the defendants will appeal the injunction verdict, hence moving the case to a different judge… a really hot mess.
Sad.
What does “time-span evidence of violation of APA” mean?
ICE isn’t doing this to reduce the number of people on campus.
It doesn’t matter what the district court decides, the loser will appeal, I think to the first circuit. Even though judges are on vacation, there will be some judge on call to hear the TRO.
The American justice system trudges on.
@twoinanddone So, MA District Court ==> First Circuit Court of Appeals ==> Supreme Court (?) Or, if the defendant counter-sues or disagrees with First Circuit appellate verdict, can they re-domicile the case to DC Circuit or even Federal Circuit? DC is the defendant’s home court, after all.
This is all in federal court in MA. what would be the counter claim? ICE doesn’t want Harvard to do anything, doesn’t want any money (damages).
No, it will not go to DC circuit court.
@sylvan8798 is right. 10-15% Undergrads and 30-50% grads are internationals. If they disappear, more domestic wl kids will be given a chance to enroll. Only in the case the wl is not large enough will they enroll less and take in less money. For example, HBS for the first time in its history will only enroll 720ish compared the annual target of 930ish. Think they grossly underestimated the headcount of admits seeking gap years in a global pandemic.
@“Cardinal Fang”
“The Administrative Procedure Act of 1946 (APA) governs the process by which federal agencies develop and issue regulations. It includes requirements for publishing notices of proposed and final rule-making in the Federal Register, and provides opportunities for the public to comment on notices of proposed rule-making.”
APA was what district and circuit courts used to stop the Muslim ban in 2017 claiming Executive Orders from the White House violated APA. Once appealed to the Supreme Court in 2018, the ban was upheld, all EOs validated with some revised language and all lower court injunctions thrown out.
The key demerit (to me) in this APA violation claim by Harvard and MIT against ICE and DHS is that “insufficient time has spanned” from ICE announcement (notice) on 7/6 to law suit filing (7/9) to pretrial date of (7/14). There is no way a reasonable person can argue that the defendants were given enough time to publish “final” rules in the Federal Register or for the public to comment. Hence, grounds for dismissal or at least a stay order. The other logic in the law suit (again my 2 cents) that ICE and DHS “created” new rules or regulations does not hold water. They merely announced the expiration of a special-pandemic rule-bending exemption (Spring and Summer) to keep F-1/M-1 status alive even if taking 100% online courses. Notice was given on 7/6 for exemptions expiring at the end of August. Again, the APA accusation is frail.
As @twoinanddone pointed out: “It doesn’t matter what the district court decides, the loser will appeal…” while precious time is lost and nearly a million internationals with F-1/M-1 remain in limbo…
Personally, I think H and MIT should have saved the legal fees and cut tuition for everyone instead.
The rule ICE announced took effect when they announced it. That wasn’t “notice.”
According to the Administrative Practice Act, proposed rules are supposed to be published in the Federal Register (notice), and then public comment happens, and then the agency looks at the comments and responds to them, and then the revised rule is announced. None of this happened in the case of the ICE rule.
Did ICE provide a comment period prior to suspending the in person class requirements back in March? Maybe the March change didn’t comply with the APA either.
Temporary suspension of a rule wouldn’t require a notice or comment period. The plaintiffs know this is a very weak legal case, but are pursuing it to take a stand, which I admire. There are practical alternatives available to them as well. Some universities are entering into agreements with foreign schools. Some have undertaken serious study of which students will actually be adversely affected. I am confident a Harvard education in some form will be available to all enrolled, regardless of domestic/foreign status.
Many of these students are not incoming freshmen. Are there waitlists of Juniors, Sophomores, Seniors, 3rd year grad students?
Seems unlikely that a “rule” which was changed temporarily in the Spring cannot continue as it was written. If the case takes place in MA as someone mentioned the AG, Maura Healy is highly biased. She will do anything in her power to get students here. Leans in one direction only. Sues anyone in her way. But that may/may not matter if the ruling is based on a procedural vote.
My kid has already heard from friends who had planned US college. They are scrambling for entrance into European Universities particularly in the UK. Seems some can be accommodated. Some will do undergraduate elsewhere then try to return to the US for grad school. These kids all have lots of resources, if there is a loophole or way forward they will find it. Consensus based in small number of kids is, might be too risky to start college in the US this year. Older kids will have a different metric since they are midway in their education.
Kids are not going to wait til August to decide.