@sylvan8798 Yes and no. Juniors and Sophomores transfer acceptance rates are single digits for top schools and up to 50% for the average school. I predict huge wl across the board, so yes. Seniors and last-year grads, no, sadly. You got a good point there. There will be shrinkage up to what we see at HBS.
@roycroftmom @“Cardinal Fang” @vpa2019
My understanding of common law is that it’s based on common sense. During the period prior to DHS announcing F-1/M-1 exemption for 100% online classes, which I recall a few days after Mar 14 White House announcement of travel ban to EU, there was widespread unanimous advocacy from Congressional leaders, the Press, the schools and even her Majesty DeVos for an exemption on foreign students. During the months after the exemption was announced (notice), there was no one seriously arguing against it, or suing. Therefore, APA was not violated. There cannot be a legal case when there is no plaintiff or a formal complaint - as in both common law or canon law. The administration was actually praised by the liberal media in those very rare moments for finally doing something humane.
@Happytimes2001 State AG Healy is a good person. But she has no jurisdiction over anything Federal or International, unless she proves irreversible harm is being done to the citizens of MA. Internationals, by definition, are not citizens of MA, even if they dwell in MA, pay MA taxes, or own property in MA.
Sadly, by announcing this cancellation of exemptions, hence reversal back to original laws, ICE has already achieved what it came out to achieve - an exodus of internationals. Standing high on moral and ethical grounds certainly deserves admiration. Sadly, time is not on the side of morals and ethics at this very moment…
Sigh*
That is not a good way to evaluate a lawsuit about the Administrative Practices Act.
Also, the State of Massachusetts, represented by their Attorney General, Maura Healy, can sue the US government over immigration matters. Recall that the State of Washington sued the federal government over the Muslim ban, and won.
No.
" common law is the part of English law that is derived from custom and judicial precedent rather than statutes. Often contrasted with statutory law."
Common sense has nothing to do with it.
But ICE rules and regs are not common law. It’s all been codified. No immigration law is common law.
Whoops. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts, not the State of Massachusetts. Fang Inc. regrets the error.
Actually, Maura Healy has already said she will sue re: ICE and the international students. I don’t personally know her or care to comment on her politics. Based on what has gone before, her actions in this regard are what I would have expected. She was quoted in the Globe about a week ago. Here’s the latest.
@LimboKid Morals, ethics and good laws are rarely in unison. And common law isn’t based on common sense. Though these ideas do seem logical.
We’ll see what happens. I do agree with above, internationals are already making other plans or at least a plan B.
The suit from Massachusetts (AG Maura Healy) has already been filed. A bunch of other states have joined in.
@“Cardinal Fang” “That is not a good way to evaluate a lawsuit about the Administrative Practices Act.” Good way or not, common sense drove the birth and growth of common laws, from Henry VIII to the Birth of USA to SCOTUS final judgments.
“Recall that the State of Washington sued the federal government over the Muslim ban, and won.” They did in 2017, on violation of APA, constitutional grounds, and potential threats to the citizens of the great state of Washington. A year later, SCOTUS reversed that ruling and that was it.
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-10-02/bob-ferguson-lawsuit-trump
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/26/us/politics/supreme-court-trump-travel-ban.html
Sadly, the foreign students do not have the same constitutional grounds to stand on, nor the threat to Massachusetts citizens argument. SCOTUS ruling in 2018 was final and the mother of all precedents on travel ban.
Back to the topic of this forum. Think they might have postponed pretrial to Wed 7/15.
You appear to have overlooked the point, which is that the state of Washington had the right to sue the federal government over immigration. The courts didn’t rule the state had no standing to sue.
@“Cardinal Fang” I didn’t. I wrote “…she has no jurisdiction over anything Federal or International, unless she proves irreversible harm is being done to the citizens of MA.” Zoom in on the word “unless” please.
WA, CA and NY sued in 2017 and won baby victories at local district courts against the Muslim ban. But due to the 2018 SCOTUS final verdict, Healy has no jurisdiction to sue “unless she proves irreversible harm is being done to the citizens of MA.”
Do I have the right to hire a lawyer tomorrow and sue Pope Francis I over corrupt Vatican finances from 2000 to 2010. Of course! But which court will accept my complaint? Which jurisdiction in which Catholic nation? Common sense suggests I don’t sue and make a fool of myself.
Having the right to sue does not equate having a jurisdiction or legal cause to sue. That’s fundamental jurisprudence, common law or not.
@LimboKid
So are schools waiting to see the outcome of this to determine a head count before revisiting the waitlists, if, in fact, they do? What kind of timing would you predict?
There’s no doubt that the ICE ruling would cause irreparable harm to the states: it would cost their state universities money to implement, among other harms alleged in the law suit. I doubt that the lawsuit will founder on standing.
@“Cardinal Fang” Yes, but that’s a different law suit from APA. Suing for economic or emotional damages is like another universe of lawyers and courts altogether. That will involve plaintiffs filing a complaint with lots of data and models tabulated in detail by accountants and actuarial scientists describing projected losses in $. Even assuming Harvard and MIT corporations are willing to disclose that level of sensitive details, it will take a month at the minimum to come up with defensible numbers.
MA has lots of talents, but going back to my earlier comment - Time is a not on the plaintiff’s side.
@Caligorilla My prediction is on 7/15 they will get a temporary suspension of 10 days at pretrial, assuming the case is not outright dismissed. So before the end of the months, all gap apps are in, all wl kids are either accepted or left alone into more August limbo.
Full disclaimer: I’m just an 18 year-old kid heading to college this fall. So my predictions can be totally useless and wrong.
Suing for economic or emotional damages? What are you talking about? Neither the states nor the universities are suing for money. They’re suing to get the ruling reversed.
Aw…you disappoint. Waitlist Limbo into August is a prediction anyone could make. It can’t go on much longer than that. Oh well. Thought you would have a revelation for us.
You realize that you have just contradicted yourself? On one hand, you claim that there will be more space for American students if the international students are not there, and then you claim that the American students WON’T be there, because they are taking gap years.
Moreover, the international students aren’t all in the colleges about which so many here on CC obsess. They aren’t even mostly in those colleges.
They are, roughly, 10% of those colleges. Those colleges have about 3% of all undergraduates at 4 year colleges. So about 90%-95% of all international students are not attending a college for which American students are fighting to attend,
In fact, the vast majority of international undergraduates are attending colleges with acceptance rates of > 50%, and with yields of around 30% or less. The colleges which the vast majority of the international students attend are desperate to fill their classes.
So stop pushing the unsubstantiated myth that there are masses of qualified American students who are desperate to attend college, and cannot because their places have been taken by foreigners
@Caligorilla I don’t have a crystal ball. Never claimed I did. Do you?
The matter might be thrown out as being premature, or in court talk, ‘unripe.’ The court could decide that there is nothing to decide yet, because even though ICE has said they WOULD issue the deportation letters, they haven’t done it yet; no one has overstayed his visa yet so no letters can be issued now.
@Limbokid said “My prediction is on 7/15 they will get a temporary suspension of 10 days at pretrial, assuming the case is not outright dismissed.”
Tomorrow is a hearing, not a pretrial. Some temporary restraining orders (TROs) are for 10 days, but that would be up to that court to decide and in this case, if it were 10 days, that order would be something like “ICE shall issue no deportation orders for 10 days, and we’ll have a hearing within 10 days” What good would that do? ICE isn’t going to issue any deportation orders until after August 31. TROs are for things like ‘don’t tear down the building’ or ‘don’t sell all the assets’ where irreparable harm will happen if the action isn’t stopped. They then have another hearing or trial to decide the final ruling.
This will be an order like “ICE cannot issue any deportation orders until ____ (after the pandemic/ until colleges can be held in person/ until new APA regs can be enacted)” in which case ICE will appeal, or “Too bad Harvard, ICE is following its regs and when the deportation orders come, those students will have to go” in which case Harvard will appeal.