In my opinion ICE should allow international students currently enrolled in a qualifying academic program in the US to remain, subject to fulfilling certain conditions such as school certification of full time enrollment, registration of the address where they will be living for the semester …or something along those lines.
@chmcnm - Personally, ICE could very easily extend the special circumstances rule now while saying it will run out in June 2021. Colleges and students would then have time to prepare. Sending the message weeks before school starts is just cruel and unnecessary.
Been that way forever. Just go to some cities, reservation or Appalachia. Funny how we’re so concerned about a few international students, especially the ones that are full-pay and have the money and resources.
“Do you think the number of full-pay international students has been one cause of the skyrocketing tuition cost? That hasn’t been very helpful to a lot of students.”
No. I think the fact that Americans are willing to take out loans and go 500k into debt for their dream college is the main reason of the skyrocketing tuition cost.
“Been that way forever.”
Well, we can work on no longer being that way. Just because it’s always been that way doesn’t mean it’s the right way.
Agree, but I did say one cause. I think the last number I saw was $40Billion/year in spending. Not deflationary. US student loan debt is an entire different discussion.
There isn’t much purity in decision making by the colleges, either. For all Harvard claims it worries about health, it of course is reopening its graduate business school, where socialization and networking is the main objective of the $100k yearly expense ( and cash cow for Harvard). But the graduate divinity school, which is one-third the size and not exactly a bunch of wild partiers, is online. Future preachers are more likely to spread the virus than Wall St-types? I do not think so.
No it doesn’t. Just commenting that we have soooo many more issues impacting many more people but here we are. Should’ve just granted a one year waiver, monitor, and move on.
If we leave things as they were in the Spring then colleges still have the issue of Freshman. My kid has a friend who is an incoming Freshman at Stanford. Kid is from China. Do you think it’s possible to get a flight, get a visa (in China currently), get through the new ICE rules. Seems unlikely.
BTW< just love the CC folks who embed “ill-informed” into every argument that isn’t their opinion. The respectful way to word it folks is IMHO. That at least tells people you respect other opinions and don’t think your own is the only viewpoint. LOL. These are the same type of folks who bring politics which isn’t allowed into every post indirectly and worded as admin or whatever to prevent getting the thread shut down.
Rules and laws aren’t there for the many…they’re there for the few that break them. That’s how it works. One person screws it up for the many.
Many/most technologies start in higher ed (or military) and then move to private sector. Agree that most IP is stolen via other avenues but don’t think it doesn’t happen in higher ed.
No matter what it is in life…somehow, someway it’s ALWAYS about the money.
I’m betting that there will be an extension granted after some political back and forth which would be par for course.
Anyone else “surprised” how quickly Harvard and MIT had a lawsuit put together? Almost like they were prepared.
“Should’ve just granted a one year waiver, monitor, and move on.”
Yes, they should’ve. Or at least given colleges more notice so that they had time to prepare a couple f2f classes.
This seems to be based on the delusion (or calculated political position) that COVID is not a problem anymore.
There was a waiver for the rules on online classes for international students in the spring. COVID is actually worse. It would seem logical to continue the waiver and that a precedent had been set.
The only defense of the resumption of the rules would be that the virus is under control.
This is political. Trump wants normalcy, a good stock market, and reelection.
I personally know a number of doctoral students who live here. They have apartments and work, study and teach here. This is devastating lives.
And we need their talents.
The UC’s joined the suit today.
https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/439715-foreign-students-boost-our-economy-in-myriad-ways
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/business/international-students-decline/index.html
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/how-1-1-million-foreign-students-contribute-to-the-u-s-economy
My daughter is sadly caught in the freshman conundrum, and will have to take a gap 6mths at least, hoping things improve. It’s just too late now with the embassies closures and travel bans, though that’s beyond the scope of this thread.
Regarding the IMHO point- fair enough. Though as an economist, I’ll have to say that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Those studies I cited, incidentally, were famously highlighted by a study ran under a Republican administration (GW Bush), and comprehensively shared by Democratic economic policy experts. So it’s not politics, at all. It’s just the way economies works. They grow, adjust and develop. Or shrink, if the resources available are curtailed/badly employed.
Maybe, maybe not. Leave me out of the political debate. I don’t care for either side. Maybe it’s a position that Covid IS a problem, it’s here to stay and we have no vaccine and might not for awhile, if ever. However, we also need to work at getting back to some type of normal…whatever that is. Normal includes resuming rules and laws.
Point fingers but the universities can’t plead ignorance. They have a lot of smart people on the payroll. They knew the law. They new that the spring extension was finite. It doesn’t seem like they offered any guidance or tried to get out in-front of the issue by working on a fall solution with ICE. They’re not blameless in all of this…and don’t think they aren’t more than happy to make this a political issue too. They quickly put a lawsuit together like they were prepared.
The reason we shutdown in March was to flatten the curve so we wouldn’t run out of ventilators and overwhelm medical staffs. We’ve mostly done that to an extent. Now what? Stay closed until a vaccine? Reopen everything? Something in-between? All have consequences, some intended and some not intended.
It’s not an old rule, it’s a fairly recent requirement (Obama era) of student visas that work must be done in person. Why would a student need a visa to study online?
There has always been the possibility of an international student having a visa withdrawn or not being admitted to the country. There are a list of rules and requirements (limited work hours and income, attending classes, no felonies) that could have the visa cancelled. If the college closes, the visa will be cancelled. If an employer sponsoring a H1b visa holder closes, the visa is cancelled.
All visa applicants know that the visa is conditional. One of the conditions of F1 or other student visas is that classes must be taken in person, that the student must live near the college, must attend the classes with few absences.
@twoinanddone My guess why online classes are prohibited is for tracking. Think 9/11.
Someone taking online classes could live anywhere, travel any time and let another person take the class for them. At least if they attend f2f there’s some type of tracking.
We haven’t flattened the curve. It’s not flat. Just look at it! Cases are going up, hospitalizations are going up, deaths are going up.
Of course it’s a recent requirement- there was no online teaching before hi-speed internet. And I’m not arguing that normal Visa requirements are wrong, or unnecessary. What I do wonder is why the ICE Covid exception needed to be lifted, as the problem is still endemic. And what is wrong with keeping things as they were in the past few months, were any problem caused because of it?
One of the strenghts I’ve always admired about the US economy/legal system is the flexibility that’s always been its hallmark, as opposed to the bureaucratic rigidity of most of Europe. When conditions change, norms change.
Covid has changed the world for ICE too, not admitting it seems to be very odd.