@Mwolf - We have strayed off the topic of this thread. So, I will close this with the counter to your point, Arizona State is bringing all students back. They are a 70,000 student university in Maricopa county with a population of 4.5 million. They have plans for managing through social distancing and synchronous learning (alternating attendance and remote days) or an option to go 100% online. We will see how it plays out.
They made the decision before the ICE announcement, so I don’t think it was motivated by the international $$.
I also noticed that MIT and one other school have filed suit to stop the policy.
Harvard and MIT are suing ICE. The two schools between them have almost 10,000 F-1 students.
Trump declared a state of emergency on 3/13. On the same day, ICE announced an exemption to the existing rules about online classes and F-1 visa holders taking online classes. The exemption was announced to be “in effect for the duration of the emergency.”
Harvard and MIT say that they relied on this assertion in their planning, as did the many F-1 students at their institution. Now, they say, although state of emergency has not ended, and indeed the pandemic is worse now, ICE arbitrarily dropped the exemption.
ICE’s attempted recission is arbitrary and capricious, was conducted without required notice and comment, and is in violation of the Administrative Practices Act, MIT and Harvard say.
Particularly for those who are arguing that ICE’s actions were defensible simply because there was an existing rule concerning online learning, I suggest you read the actual brief filed by Harvard and MIT. I don’t think I’m permitted to link it here, but there is a link in MIT’s press release, which can be found by googling “MIT and Harvard file suit against new ICE regulations.” It’s very readable and explains both the factual background and the legal argument that ICE’s actions were arbitrary and capricious and therefore impermissible under the APA. It is always a high bar when seeking an injunction, but the case against ICE’s action is well-stated in this brief.
@twokids2go I don’t know if it applies to your situation but the EU ban on Americans traveling there doesn’t ban students. There maybe quarantines involved.
This is the classic ill-informed argument made about either students or workers. Because it starts from a wrong concept - there is no FIXED amount of college places, or jobs in an economy.
High-paying international students (aside from adding needed world-wide skills and perspective to campuses) allow most schools to take in more students that they otherwise would. Take a school like Brandeis - 20% of international students, 90% of whom are full pay (75k per year minimum). US students pay on average 50% of that because of financial aid, subsidized in various ways by Internationals.
For workers- the average high-skilled international immigrant worker (so very relevant to the college conversation) creates a minimum extra 2-3 jobs (according to various studies) for the american economy. The world is not a static place, it grows or shrinks depending on people and government actions.
Also, all the European cuntries, though closed to Americans because of the high Covid numbers (please note that the US was among the first to implement such a policy) allow US students to come in with a Visa, online teaching or not.
ICE’s is clearly a political choice with two targets (Colleges not reopening fully and international students) designed to appeal to the administration political base. It is negative, short-sighted and brings no benefit whatsoever.
Also, a lot of international student who will see their Visas revoked will struggle to continue their studies online - have you ever tried to get a reliable internet connection from Africa, South America, a large chunk of the Indian subcontinent or some parts of rural Europe, or taken lessons (or talked to professors) in the middle of the night? Have you tried to get through the great firewall of China?
Does anyone sincerely think that the American residential college experience will be the same without the multi-cultural campuses and the innumerable brilliant foreign TAs and Professors? A large chunk of the research anywhere depends hugely on foreign graduates…
Is a closed educational system the solution for a country that was built by immigrants, and to this day thrives on its innovation economy, thanks to the bright minds from all over the world that work for the innovation start-ups or tech giants?
Ah, but spies on campuses, of course. Or those dangerous harvard students who- after spending 500k on their education- will suddenly disappear, overstay their visas and become illegals… And those pesky communists, don’t forget.
A median age of over 60 for Harvard’s faculty explains much of the problem in higher education today and should be a serious warning to anyone considering pursuing a graduate degree in the arts and sciences.
It’s undeniable that international students, some of whom become immigrants, make our country better in terms of job creation, innovation, research, health care workers, etc.
What really irks me about the ICE decision and Trump’s recent comments about re-opening schools and colleges is that it’s politicizing an issue that is best left up to local officials based on community COVID conditions. We all want schools to re-open and school and college boards are making very difficult decisions.
I’m worried Trump is going to make this the next “mask wearing” issue and that is VERY bad for all of us. Plus, it used to be that his side of the aisle was all about local control of education and some even called for abolishing the US Dept. of Ed! Irony, much?
If the Trump Administration had taken COVID seriously back in Jan. and brought to bear the full resources of the federal government to control it, we likely wouldn’t be in this situation. Other advanced countries got COVID under control; ours hasn’t and the Administration is just trying to ‘move on’ while thousands struggle (both in terms of health and economically) and some die.
So using technicalities of immigration rules and holding international students hostage to pressure colleges to re-open is esp. ironic and horrible. What a stain on our country.
@ucbalumnus - Thanks? My student number was off by 5k for the “Metropolitan Campus Population”, but I was countering the point above that some schools are choosing not to come back because of the larger metro areas where the school is located pose a greater risk to students and faculty.
I am well aware of the plans at ASU, I have a rising junior in Barrett Honors College. Again, trying to illustrate that a large school in a large metro area will be offering in person classes in the Fall of 2020. It is my sense that some on this thread feel the threat/risk is too great and therefore schools are justified in going 100% online. Every major school that goes 100% online feeds the fears of other University Administrators that see liability risks around every corner. I think (or “feel” for @MWolf) ASU is taking a cautious, prudent approach to delivering a quality education in a safe and effective manner. As such, they are not impacted by the ICE policy change (which I think could be handled better).
I also feel Notre Dame is taking a good approach to the return. I have a rising junior there also. They are planning to maintain normal occupancy of dorm rooms, not go to singles only. They are mitigating risk by having every student take a COVID test at home. Any student who tests positive will need to wait to return to campus until they are cleared medically. They plan to hold the majority of classes in person. It helps that they have smaller class size to begin with.
So, two well recognized schools have taken steps to return to “normal” (with a number of precautions in place) operations in the Fall of '20. I admire the leadership role both of these universities have taken. The ICE policy would be a non-issue if more schools followed a similar path. I agree that the ICE policy would also be a non-issue if options were offered for students with challenging situations that make a return to their country impractical or even dangerous.
I think “feeling” that a college has a good plan is quite irrelevant - we’ll only see what was a good plan by the late fall. (And Arizona’s track record at the moment is not exactly inspiring).
The point is that some colleges believe that their online-only plan is the right way to go, and they (and their international students) are being unfairly targeted because the administration, for political reasons, wants all schools to open. Open, whatever the consequences, just the same way bars & co were opened when infections were still high.
What happens to all the international students at ASU and all the other places that have in-person courses if there’s a serious outbreak in, say, early October and they have to go online only? Do we then get a rounding-up of international students who are suddenly remaining in the country illegally? Did anyone in ICE think this through?
Just put yourself in the place of a 20-year-old kid who has no idea when his Visa will be withdrawn. How worried would you be, could you imagine the tension and stress? But no, let’s just stick with an old rule that was set for a world without a pandemic. Soon it will magically disappear anyway, I hear.
Do you think the number of full-pay international students has been one cause of the skyrocketing tuition cost? That hasn’t been very helpful to a lot of students.
Not close all borders but put some parameters and rules in place. Not unreasonable. Stealing intellectual property and patented info is a serious matter.
So everyone against deporting international students if their school goes online what would you do? They already gave a waiver for the spring semester I believe so kids could finish up.
What’s the solution? Just curious. A 6 month extension? A 2 year extension? Permanent US citizenship?
They actually had a solution, and it worked well. Just extend it until at least some classes can be help ftf. Why would you scrap that, what problems did it cause?
Parameters are in place- most schools actually have caps (7-10%) for the number of international students, and you have to prove the ability to finance your studies.
Most Intellectual property is stolen by companies’ joint-ventures in China, not through Universities. And also, China is not the world.
I don’t think many Europeans or Central/South Americans or Africans come to steal IP.