They are helping but they also take spots from Americans who would pay the same tuition.
Exactly why do you think that colleges and their students will be isolated in a bubble from the surrounding population?
Aside from the students there are faculty and staff, the families of the faculty and staff, the elderly people who live around the campus who frequent the same places as the students, etc, etc, etc. All of those people are at risk when masses of students are sent to live together in the petrie dishes of college dorms, and then spread it through the population.
The death rate if people in the age range of the college faculty and staff is closer to 1.5%-2%. Those death rates only include people with no risk factors, which are higher. So a campus like Duke has 3,800 faculty and over 41,000 staff. 1% of those would be almost 450 people.
There is a lot of evidence that a good number of the 20% who get serious cases end up with serious health issues which may be permanent. So add another 2% or so with long-term health issues.
So you “feel that the vast majority that may get the virus will require no more treatment than rest and liquids.” That’s great, but I’m happy that college administrators listen to professionals, rather than to feelings.
Europe has had falling COVID 19 numbers for weeks. The USA is going through a rapid increase in numbers, and the deaths will soon follow. When the USA had falling numbers like those European countries, you can make that comparison. At the moment, it is not valid.
Do you know that the “vast majority” of people who got polio also survived, as did the “vast majority” of people who got measles?
As for colleges being “overly cautious”? Well, I guess that the danger of losing a few hundred faculty and staff kinda justifies their caution, wouldn’t you agree?
The arguments for having foreign students in the US are real. The arguments for having more American students having access to STEM programs in public universities are real also. American ingenuity is the engine of many companies.
It’s sad to me that there are limits on the numbers of students in so many schools. Over time, CS and Engineering programs have become much more difficult for American students. International students have high stats and full pay but that doesn’t mean there are not many American students who also have high stats and may not be high pay. No one on CC ever mentions all the public dollars that go to these colleges. Not looking to talk politics. And I won’t respond to crazy attacks. Every nation has some limits on the number of international students. Each and every one. I went to college abroad many decades ago and I had lots of visas and things to fill out. It was not easy.
I think the notion of people taking their magical skills to another country is fine with me. If someone is doing great in Switzerland, that’s fine with me. I don’t think another nation doing well in any field means the US is losing brainpower. The world is filled with smart educated people. People want to come to the US not only to get an education but to be able to work here. People will go to the place where they have the best opportunities. That may/may not be the US. But that doesn’t mean we should act out of fear. Sometimes it feels like a one-sided echo chamber of folks who think a pandemic means we should continue to do what we have always done. We own a business and can’t get H1B visas and some folks couldn’t return to the US either but we understand why. (For those who don’t there are many unemployed people in the US) Many of our staff can’t travel and we couldn’t even send money at one point due to the pandemic. We get it. Flexibility is key.
It’s a pandemic, so adjustments like closed embassies are impacting many students from many nations. I don’t have a kid going abroad, but I’d bet money it would be tough to send my kid for a semester to Australia or China this Fall also. I know I can’t go to Greece on vacation due to the pandemic. And I don’t think it’s because they are against Americans.
It is unlikely people will “think it’s fine” for the educated students of tomorrow to be someplace other than the US for long. The networking, collaboration, innovation, invention, research, entrepreneurship, startup businesses grow where the bright and motivated are. Also where their funding goes. Americans need to stop assuming that we are some irresistible country that can be as difficult and narrow minded as we want, and pay no price for it. When the companies leave, and take the high paying jobs with them, it will be too late.
Most colleges and universities are desperate for students. If some US student can’t find a spot, it isn’t because an international student took it away from them.
I strongly believe International students bring a lot more to university campuses than just higher tuition. They offer different perspectives which lead to innovation and enrich the college experience for domestic students. Their presence will be missed if unable to attend and my heart goes out to them now while waiting in mercy for colleges to navigate the virus and rules.
With that being said, it appears that this decision, to reverse the special considerations that were provided during the first few months of the pandemic, is a definite push to get schools back in session - not to push internationals out. The administration has been clearly pushing the topic over the past few days. International students just happen to be caught in the crossfire.
I am constantly reading different views on the topic which seems to boil down to two camps: 1. Opening is unsafe and shouldn’t happen until the virus is under control and/or a vaccine is developed. Or 2. Education is essential, as are grocery stores. Keeping kids out of school too long will have devastating consequences. Online school works for some (my D didn’t have a problem with online classes at all) but that is not the case for many others.
I don’t think the administration’s push for schools to reopen favors him in the election in fall. In fact, I think it’s a high risk move especially if numbers continue to increase. However, in March I would have never imagined that we wouldn’t have this under control by now in July. Who’s to say it will be any better in January or a year from now? At what point do we face this invisible monster head-on, equipped with masks, hand sanitizers and vitamins and move forward? I believe the efforts from the administration say “the time is now”. Colleges that don’t want to lose their International students have to figure out a way to safely provide at least one class in person. It’s a push in the shallow end to get everyone swimming again.
@MWolf - I’m just a happy parent trying to navigate this with the rest of us.
I have read and heard that distance is the best barrier for the spread of this virus. Is it possible that professors can teach effectively, in person, and maintain distance from students? Definitely. I agree that protecting professors is important. Are there other ways than going to distance learning?
The science is still out on long term effects. Everything I have seen is either speculative or anecdotal, observational articles. One featured Dr Eric Topol, who is very widely published. Unfortunately, he has a reputation for promoting the latest drug he is being paid to research. In a brief search of articles on the subject, the impact is definitely on older patients that were required to go on ventilators. That has been shown to lead to numerous issues if the patient survives. For the primary demo of the student body, this is a very low risk.
The Polio and Measles arguments are completely different. Both were highly infective and impacted younger patients more than older. They both have vaccines now that are quite effective, if people choose to get them. I hope they have a COVID vaccine in the near future. I feel (oops there I go again) a vaccine will help the “herd immunity” take hold.
By the way, I use “I feel” because I am not a medical professional. I can do some research and express my opinions, just as you can.
So, what if the US mortality numbers do not increase? There is speculation that due to medical professionals improving their treatment of these patients, the death rate will remain steady to declining. I heard GOV DeSantis today describing much of the increase in his state. They have virtually no restrictions on who can get tested. The highest demo testing positive right now is 21 year olds. Few, if any are requiring any hospital care.
I disagree with the assertion that opening Universities to in person classes will necessarily lead to professors and staff getting infected. The football example I cited is an example that it can be done. Are football staff all young and healthy? No. I have not been able to find a single case where a University staffer or player has been hospitalized, much less died, as a result of a return to campus for conditioning. Have you read about any?
Precisely…there are lots of American kids just as so called smart as the foreigners who were admitted ahead of them and would gladly find a way to pay for it…that’s reality.
Well let’s ban all foreign students, then, since that argument has nothing to do with COVID.
Come to think of it, his whole thing has zero to do with COVID and everything to do with November.
What I really love is that the people pushing this are the same ones saying that 99% of the cases are totally harmless.
This is easy, simple and quick for Harvard and MIT to solve if they wanted to do so, so in reality, they will not lose a single foreign student unless they really do not care at all. Harvard could tomorrow sign an agreement with any college offering f2f instruction to enroll X number of Harvard foreign students temporarily, and allow the credits to transfer. Many universities take visiting students and would agree to this with Harvard ( or other schools). Harvard knows this.
The rule has to do with Covid because the exemption from the rule was instituted to address school closures this spring.
The general rule under discussion requires in person classes to prevent fraudulent visa applications and an exemption was given for Spring and Summer 2020 to allow students to finish their classes remotely.
While I think the administration should reconsider as to those international students already in the US, there isn’t a very good argument why international students not in the US can’t take remote classes from their home countries until in person classes resume. The practicality is that most US embassies are closed abroad so the likelihood of obtaining a student visa in time for the fall is slim. In addition, the rule change only applies to Fall 2020.
It is entirely possible that both viewpoints are correct*, so it will turn out badly no matter what choice or compromise is made.
*I.e. Education (particularly K-12) is essential, and for some/many situations is much more effectively done in the classroom, but classroom environments are among the most difficult to control virus spread, due to being inside with everyone stationary and sharing inside air for an hour or more with each other.
I understand the original reason for the rule. I find the timing of this interesting, though, and I don’t really buy that it was the result of any sort of deliberative process, because…why would I? Why would anyone?
This thread. My god.
@usma87 I’m not saying to keep things closed, just that a high degree of caution is highly justified.
Some colleges cannot be opened, like USC, Harvard, UIC, UChicago, and any other urban college, because it is impossible to isolate the dorms from the rest of the people, since every student in a dorm is a potential superspreader.
Colleges in more rural areas, especially if they almost entirely residential, can take precautions that keep them away from the local population, at least until it is known that the students are “COVID-free” (a few weeks of quarantine on campus, and no leaving town without a two week quarantine upon return, etc), and even them, extra precautions need to be taken.
But only a small proportion of all students attend small rural colleges. Most attend colleges in large medium or small metropolitan areas, and are intertwined with the larger non-university population. So, for example, UIUC is in a area with about 150,000 inhabitants, and UIUC’s 10,000 grad students teach the undergraduates on one hand, but also live in the larger population - shop at the same stores, live in the same neighborhoods, take the same buses, etc. An outbreak in a dorm or a frat house will spread out extremely quickly.
Also with 40,000 undergraduates, even 5% not complying means that there are 2,000 reckless teens, who can bee in 2,000 wrong places, and have 2,000 individual chances of infection, compared to, say, Williams, where a 5% noncompliance is only 100 students. Moreover, contact checking with 40,000 students in an area with 150,000 people is much more difficult than 2,000 students in an area with 8,000 people. If we consider, say, NYU with 27,000 undergrads in a city of 8,000,000, it becomes practically impossible.
Of course, in large urban colleges a very large percent of the students live off of campus. While that reduces the chance of a superspreader, it also increases the chance that that an infection from the dorms will spread outwards.
So a lot more discussion needs to be done, a lot more planning and modeling, and much more planning and many more precautions need to be taken.
Most importantly, we must remember that the students are not isolated from the rest of the population, and infection can spread out of the student population almost as fast as they can spread through the student population. Every one is a potential COVID Stu.
Those schools who are desperate for international students are offering F2F instruction )for their domestic students too) and their students can stay and use their current visas. They are kind of resigned that freshmen student may not get a first time student visa because of the closed consulates. There just isn’t much they can do about that.
MIT and Harvard? Not desperate.
It has everything to do with COVID, which is forcing every business, institution, school, government entity, you name it, to re evaluate how they operate going forward…if this is the catalyst for admitting more American students to good schools for which they are as qualified as foreigners then I’m all for it…these boards are replete with topics from American kids who have superb grades and qualifications who say they are being wait listed to excellent American schools…if you don’t think foreign students have something to do with that then you are not being realistic…it’s not America’s job to educate the world at the expense of our own kids…particularly at state schools…I will never understand how a foreign student gets accepted over a qualified American kid at any state school…that American kid’s family has been paying taxes in that state for years that maintain the roads, finance the public schools, contribute to the arts etc. while the foreign student has not…even if they full pay…and by the way, our own American students are banned from studying abroad by most countries this fall and are having their visas revoked…do you see no injustice there?
@MWolf One huge factor in college areas with small populations, like Williams v. large populations like BU is resources. A Covid spread in Western MA would fill ICU beds fast while a spread in a major metropolitan area could be better off.
It’s all a gamble. I happen to think the pattern at colleges will be patchy mch lije the pattern across the US.
Right now there are no cures and the likelihood is there will be lots of covid waves and spikes regardless of what we do relative to colleges.
@ucbalumnus - Absolutely both views are valid.
The point I was making is that with no end in sight (no date on a vaccine nor knowledge if a vaccine will even work) the administration is pushing schools to start focusing on the safest ways to open up under our current conditions. I don’t think it helps to translate this decision into a meaning that international students aren’t welcome. It appears much more likely that he is using international students as bait (unfortunately) to move forward.
No, I do not see the injustice. The United States cannot get its act together to control the spread of this virus. THAT is the reason American students cannot travel abroad. My daughter is one of those students who should be studying at her university abroad and will be here in the U.S. instead. It stinks but it is not unjust. Should we be kicking out international students who are already here as retribution? No.
I keep hearing people pushing for K-12 schools to open because they hear that schools in countries like Denmark are open without issues. You know why? Because they did not try to re-open until they had the virus count to very low levels. Denmark has 5.7 million people and had 12 cases yesterday. Colorado has 5.7 million people and had 501 cases yesterday. We are not at the same place in managing this virus.
While I would give anything for my daughter to be able to study at her university. I understand the reasoning she cannot go there yet. But the reason she cannot travel abroad is not for the same reason that our administration is trying to prevent international students from studying here.
It’s not retribution as you say…it’s existing rules that predate COVID…online learning only in the US by foreigners has been prohibited for quite some time.