idealic college experience vs good deal and good enough

Parents Forum
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<p>Interesting, eastcoascrazy. I think there are several reasons for the change. First, more and more data is publicly available to allow people to challenge long-held beliefs with facts. Second, it’s hard to find facts to support ANY connection between “ranking” (as defined by the all-holy USNWR, apparently) of colleges and student outcomes at each (with a couple of notable exceptions–i.e., finance/IB). It is becoming more and more obvious that it’s the STUDENT that determines his or her path, not the place he/she happens to spend four years as an undergraduate. (This was my point in an earlier post–look at the “schools I turned down for state honors program X” threads for validation.) Third, the job market is so much tougher now that I think parents are a little more subject to sticker shock. And related to that, they realize that they might be wiser to set money aside to support their kid through a post-college unpaid internship or help pay for their first apartment/condo rather than blow it all on a prestige undergraduate degree.</p>

<p>As an aside, I think putting Wesleyan on a pedestal is a bit ridiculous. Grinnell is every bit as competitive academically and is in the top 10 baccalaureate institutions of origin for PhD programs. Wesleyan is not. Lawrence is a step down in terms of the stats of the student body but still full of very bright, motivated kids who do very well in grad school and beyond. (It also has a fantastic music conservatory, for those who are interested in that.)</p>

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<p>"I am just picturing the family conversation that starts with “well, son, you’ve done great–you have all these acceptances on the table. Now, if you are DYING to go to Wesleyan, you can–we have saved enough to make sure it will work. However, if you choose a less expensive (or free) option, we will then have that $XXX,XXX to use for other things–law school, your wedding, your first downpayment on a condo, or our retirement.”</p>

<p>I think it’s quite feasible that people will be willing to spend $ on college that they aren’t going to necessarily hand over to the kid for wedding/condo downpayment/etc. if the kid “underspends” or saves them money. I don’t think all money is fungible in this regard. </p>

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<p>Also, to address the comments on only apply to places you KNOW you can afford. First, the Net Price Calculator has made this easier to figure out (and I am divorced AND have a small business, but still find them useful). Every college has them now. Second, I don’t necessarily think you should only apply to colleges you know you can afford – but you owe it to your kids to figure out your financial situation during the college search and lay it out for them so they know what the parameters are before applications go in. And if you are certain you cannot or will not pay for a college, then you need to ask your kid to not apply there and make it clear you won’t be able to pay for it. </p>

<p>This isn’t mean spirited – I genuinely think the OP is trying to get this community to build a case he can take back to his spouse and son, and doing it without presenting all the facts. There ARE two sides to this argument. And this is not the “old” mindset on CC – my D2 is only a college freshman, so we are living the cost (and benefits) of the higher priced choice right now.</p>

<p>It is definitely a valid conversation every family should have about cost vs. benefit as they make college choices. But don’t bait and switch on your kid…</p>

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<p>Actually, it should really be:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Do not apply if you know that you CANNOT afford it. I.e. if the net price calculator clearly indicates that need-based aid will be insufficient, AND there are no large-enough merit scholarships that are within reach, then it really is not worth an application.</p></li>
<li><p>If affordability is uncertain due to needing a competitive merit scholarship to make it affordable, then go ahead and apply, but the reach/match/safety assessment has to be based on the merit scholarship, and admission without the needed scholarship should be viewed the same as rejection.</p></li>
<li><p>The application list must contain a safety that is known to be affordable.</p></li>
</ul>

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<p>Just noticed this thread. Can I ask, are his scholarships all non-departmental? The reason I ask is because the basic NMF scholarship is full tuition/fees. There is an additional competitive $4K/yr scholarship that is general. As far as I know(but I don’t know very much) any additional money would be departmental money. The thing about that is that if he is uncertain of major and switches, that is money he would lose. Is it certain he has a free ride? When first admitted he would have been awarded a Presidential or some such scholarship. Can’t recall what it’s called.Then later when he got NMF, that was replaced by the NMF scholarship. They don’t stack. Just making sure you really have the full ride. If one of the scholarships is actual $ amount, have you calculated the costs? Barrett rm/bd is more expensive than many state schools. Anyway, still much cheaper than your other options, but it might change the calculus a bit.</p>

<p>ASU does some things superbly- urban planning, geology, Chinese flagship, design. Other things quite competently-business, engineering, music. I don’t know about philosophy. You’d have to look into that. You can check the online course catalog to see course enrollment. Remembering that for many lower div classes he may get honors sections of 25 rather than large lectures. The question is how his major handles upper div.classes. Some at ASU (math, eg) have all upper div classes at 35 or less. Others may run larger classes. If he likes a small intimate environment, that is important to determine.</p>

<p>I don’t know where you hail from. September is miserably hot there, but the rest of school year the weather is awesome. You do have to live through September though. We are from the land of eternal ice and snow. Or seems that way this year at least. </p>

<p>Has he done the visit that Barrett pays for? You know, they pay for NMFs flights and put them up in a Barrett student’s room for overnight, go to classes, eat in dining hall, dotours, etc.? What is his opinion? We visited twice to be absolutely certain.</p>

<p>ASU enrolls large numbers of freshmen who are not adequately prepared for college. They are one of only 3 state schools and it is their mission to serve the students of the state. Unlike the top state school of our state, which only serves the top students of the state, while the rest attend one of the many other state schools. So ASU freshmen classes are loaded with kids who can’t do college level work and profs have to hand hold. Many of these students will drop out and return to school when they are more mature, or perhaps not at all. Barrett students don’t have to sit in many classes of that sort. ASU is generous with AP credits, and there are small honors sections of many intro courses. By the time you are advanced beyond the level at which there are many honors classes, you are in classes with other students who have made it, whether by floating over in Barrett, or by running the gauntlet. In any case, kids who are serious about school. In some majors, like engineering and physics, students will be fairly serious wherever you go, though there will be differences from one school to another of course in the general level of peers you are surrounded by. I don’t know about humanities.</p>

<p>ASU is eager to provide their top students with opportunities. They take good care of the Barrett students. But only your family can decide. There is a big difference between ASU and a small LAC. If your kid is a small-LAC-in-the-middle-of-the-idyllic-countryside type of kid, then ASU may not be the place for him.</p>

106

<p>I don’t believe selective colleges are worth any sacrifice, and I don’t believe I’ve argued to the contrary in the past. I do think they can be worth the money, if you have it. They can even be worth modest debt. But this thread isn’t really about that, or at least that’s not what intparent andI are talking about.</p>

107

<p>

It might not be, but in some families it is. My little sister used the fact that she attended much less expensive colleges than I did for years as a way to justify our parents’ financial support for a car, destination wedding, etc. It pretty much worked. :)</p>

108

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<p>Agreed. Many families who are more than happy to pay for an undergrad education…even if its more after feeling the more expensive college offers BETTER VALUE in areas such as academics may feel other things like graduate education, house, car, weddings are not their responsibility. </p>

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<p>And again, I feel the need to repeat that thinking of paying full-freight for a PhD program makes no sense. </p>

<p>If you must pay to attend a PhD program or go into substantial debt to attend, it’s not worth it. Especially considering the lack of fellowships will make many on faculty hiring committees regard the full-freight PhD student as an academic dilettante who was admitted because he/she was wealthy enough/foolhardy enough to pay full-freight for their PhD program. </p>

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<p>@celesteroberts: glad you showed up! Your ears must have been burning. :)</p>

110

<p>We were in the similar position with D1. We were prepared to be full pay for whatever school D1 should get into. We were more naive back then because we never imagined D1 would be able to get any merit money. It was before I was on CC. When she was offered a full ride at her safety school, we were unprepared to process it. We thought about what we could do with the money - graduate school, down payment, heck - a lot of exotic vacations for us. Then we thought about why we’ve worked so hard and put away money for her education, but more importantly, what was the price for 4 years of D1’s life, something she could never get back. I would never encourage people to go into a lot of debt to pay for their kid’s “dream school,” but if you were prepared to pay for a top notch school already, why settle now. Schools give merit scholarship (pay) to attract top tier students.</p>

111

<p>Part of the problem in this thread may be that the OP has not been completely clear about:</p>

<p>a. How secure the family finances are relative to the $160,000 to $220,000 difference.
b. What the family previously discussed and agreed to back at application time, and how the application list was made (some small LACs and out-of-state giant ASU).
c. How strong the student’s preferences are between the schools.</p>

<p>It appears to me that (a) the family has the money, but $220,000 may not be a comfortable amount for them to spend, (b) this aspect is not clear, although the parents may have allowed the student to believe that they could pay the list price of the expensive small LACs, and (c) the student has a weak preference toward some of the small LACs over ASU, but is unsure and undecided, even if cost were no object. But I may be assuming incorrectly, and it appears that other posters in this thread may have read different assumptions from the OP’s posts.</p>

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<p>^ Bingo. We really don’t know enough about the family’s finances to make a judgment one way or another. When I was applying to colleges close to ten years ago now, my parents and I would not have paid the 45K price tag for Wesleyan over the full ride at the honors program at my state school. I’m not sure if we would have paid 20-25. They did wind up paying close to 20 for an Ivy - which was about what they had saved to pay for college in any case.</p>

<p>But that was with a family income of a little more than 100K per year. The calculations would have been different if they had been making 250. They would also have been different if they had been making 70. I totally understand if OP doesn’t want to share financial specifics, but without them there’s only so much insight anyone can offer.</p>

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<p>OP, I know it’s a bit late in the cycle to think of looking at other schools, but if none of your choices seem satisfactory for whatever reason, some of the publics that offer large automatic merit for NMFs continue to accept applications very late. When we were visiting ASU last year mid-March we got to chatting with another prospective student visitor who was on a whirlwind tour of Alabama, Oklahoma and can’t remember where else, but a couple of other places, and she hadn’t even applied to these places, but all were courting her and allowing her to apply late. There aren’t very many small LACs that offer this kind of merit for NMFs, but there are a few. I don’t know if they similarly allow late applications, but it’s worth contacting them to ask. U of Tulsa, Denison and UEvansville are 3 I remember that give full tuition. Tulsa may be out as they only offer 50 and I think they are usually all taken, maybe some kids even turned down. Denison gives out 20-some and some years have leftovers. 2 years ago they had 22, but this fall only 14. Not sure about Evansville. You can check the NMF scholarship thread to look for more schools. There’s Baylor, a bit larger. I don’t know where you are from, but in some states, like ours, one of the smaller state campuses may offer full ride for in-state NMFs. It doesn’t have to be huge school like ASU to get money.</p>

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<p>@Int, I think it is ridiculous to argue OP is doing a bait and switch. OP didn’t know what options S would have when they were doing applications. Plus, you are also arrogant and presumptuous to give advice when you don’t know OP’s financial situation. </p>

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<p>I think UCBAlumnus summarized the situation very well and objectively. Hopefully OP will return to answer these questions so that we can answer more objectively rather than estimate/judge.</p>

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<p>That would be nice. I also wish people would let the OP off the hook for ucb’s point “b” above. Again, there is a big difference between thinking you are comfortable writing checks for a quarter of a million dollars and actually doing it when it is unclear what the outcome would be.</p>

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<p>Creating a thread called “Option A vs. Option B at a lower price” is usually viewed as a request for advice.</p>

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<p>oldfort:

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<p>IMO this type of thinking puts an unjustifiable weight on these particular 4 years. No one ever gets back any years of their life. CC is populated by a large percentage of people which seem to hold the position that these particular 4 years are so über important that no other time frame in one’s life will ever be as influential or as significant. </p>

<p>The ability to assists one’s young 'un AFTER those 4 years can become much more influential in their future success (material and spiritual) than is given credit. Starting with no debt, the ability to have part - or all - of grad school funded, the ability to gift the down payment for a home or support a non-income producing passion for a longer period of time is also of value. </p>

<p>Some of us that ‘have it in the bank’ evaluate the wisdom of 250K for ANY undergrad education. And @Hunt and Intparent …the opportunity cost of $$ is a discussion we started having with out kids when they started getting an allowance…in about 3rd grade. </p>

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<p>I get the OP’s dliemma, even if others don’t. How much is too much? Not very many families can walk away from $220K for a good option. In the OP’s case, they are letting the son decide. This is similar to parents saying you can go to school X and we’ll cover it all, or to school Y and you have take loans. Nowhere did they say they are not willing to pay, only wanted advice as to whether the difference is worth it. </p>

<p>Not sure why Intparent keeps saying the parents are now unwilling to pay for college and decided so late in the game. Weighing the options before you know the price is very different than options when the actual COA is on the table. NPCs may help you determine if your kid will get need-based aid, but certainly won’t tell if a full ride is coming your way. Not sure how this family could have known that ahead of time.</p>

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<p>Coming into this late but I keep seeing comments that by going to the less expensive state flagship OP’s son could use the money he saved for graduate studies. If the OP’s son is going to go to graduate school in the arts or sciences, he shouldn’t have to pay for graduate school. I believe the OP mentioned that her son might be interested in a doctorate in philosophy–if he’s not good enough to get funding for graduate studies, which usually entails covering tuition and a stipend of some sort, i.e., a teaching/research assistantship or fellowship, then he shouldn’t go to graduate school. I fully agree with Cobrat’s post on self-funding of PhD programs.</p>

<p>If graduate school is the goal of the OP{'s son, then the academic quality of the student’s undergraduate institution is very important. A student with a 4.0 from Wesleyan and a strong GRE is going to trump a student from ASU, even if that student has the same GPA and participated in a special program at ASU. It especially true if when the number of students a department can fund is limited. Academics, in general (and I’m sure there are some exceptions) are not the people who say “it doesn’t matter where you went to college.”</p>