<p>What if the ride where only 75%? What about the offers on the table between free and $220K? The OP doesn’t seem to want to consider those, either (and I am pretty sure due to non-response on the question that there is merit money from Bard on the table, too). Why is “free” so important – sure, everyone wants something for nothing. But there is no free lunch… and the OP is awfully cavalier about whether this school is a fit for his kid (he himself said it is clearly outside his kid’s comfort zone). If the OP didn’t have the money, I’d say stuff the square peg into the round hole because that is the only route for him to go to college. But he has the money… just doesn’t want to spend it on college.</p>
<p>Honestly, if I didn’t think the OP was trying to gain sympathy by giving only partial facts, I would give the advice to go to accepted student visits at the kid’s top 3 choices, then let the kid decide. Offer him some of the money post-graduation if he takes the free ride, some but less if he takes one of the merit schools, and no extra (and maybe ask him to take out subsidized loans if you qualify) for Wes so he has some skin in the game – but allow him to decide. The kid won’t be very forgiving of his dad for forcing him into the cheap choice if the fit turns out to be really poor… the kid may rather spend at least some of the money on one of his choices with merit aid, or take on some debt to attend Wes, rather than go to ASU.</p>
<p>I’d be very very careful making such statements. You just don’t know. It could very well be that there are professors at ASU who are in close touch with colleagues at other schools, including top graduate programs. Personal connections are especially important at the doctoral level.</p>
<p>I know I got into three doctoral programs largely because I knew faculty at these universities and they were all willing to back me. (I knew these professors at a different school; by the time I had applied to PhD programs, they had all moved on to these new schools). I’m pretty sure I got into a fourth school because one old professor of mine had worked with faculty there.</p>
<p>From what I have seen (ASU grads going to top PhD programs in their majors), PhD admissions is concerned whether the top students at the undergraduate school in the major are worthy PhD candidates, which is a different notion of school quality than the general prestige levels that track closely with the quality of the worst students at the undergraduate school.</p>
<p>Of course, this varies from major to major. For example, do we know what top PhD programs in philosophy think of philosophy majors at ASU, Wesleyan, etc. in terms of their worthiness as PhD students? If someone knows philosophy faculty at NYU, Rutgers, etc., s/he may be able to give some hints here, but most others would probably be guessing blindly here.</p>
<p>A given student may also be more likely to be a star in a somewhat less competitive undergrad program. If you’re one of five really great students at Wes, but the clear standout at ASU, you might actually be better off at ASU from a PhD admissions perspective, since your professors are going to be focusing their attention and praise on you alone, rather than parceling it out between several excellent candidates - of which you may or may not be the best. </p>
<p>OP says they are from the NW. OP’s son likely applied to ASU because it is in the west. One of the very few western schools that gives large AUTOMATIC merit to NMFs, And well-known for so doing. You don’t have to do much research to be aware of this. It is easy to add as a financial safety. No grueling essays, unless you decide to attend, and then the Barrett app has essays. But unlike Michigan, A&M and others, you don’t have to do the honors app early on. They allow NMFs to do it very late, after decision time. OP would have anticipated the full tuition/fees part of money. It is automatic for NMFs. Unless grades are very bad, more than a ‘C’ or 2, and there was some question of attaining the NMF status. But in that case getting into Wesleyan would not have been easy. For other scholarships, there is $4K/yr awarded to 4 NMFs and which has a separate application with attendant essays. ASU had 119 NMF freshmen last year, plus 50-some Hispanic Scholars. So that extra money is not easy to win, especially if grades are so-so. Any departmental money is also uncertain. But the tuition/fees money is automatic and they would have known this at time of application.</p>
<p>They could have applied to places that are guaranteed totally free full ride for NMF if money is all that mattered in adding a financial safety. UCF, Kentucky, Idaho. Either they didn’t know a whole lot about the college app stuff, or they thought ASU a good choice as closer to home or I don’t know what. They know someone at the HS who had gone there perhaps.</p>
<p>People are very tense and testy on this thread. Long winter maybe?? OP is asking questions in good faith, I think. This is a confusing process and for 1st timers especially, even if the money is in the bank waiting to be spent. I have an older child who didn’t seem to care at ALL where he went to college, even after acceptances came in, and that threw me completely. I recall we were preparing to pay to send him OOS to UMichigan (none of my kids are small-LAC type kids) and I was railing at him, “Why should we spend $$$$$ to send you there when you don’t even seem to care if you go there or not?” Didn’t express any joy or excitement about it, or even say that was his first choice. So frustrating. So he attended our own state school instead at less than half the price.</p>
<p>The rule of thumb we got several years ago was that for post-grad employment at the organizations in high demand by ambitious students, name of school can be important, even when comparing ABET accredited programs. (Latter would likely not be a consideration in OP’s case.)</p>
<p>For graduate school admissions, an honors program with enhanced advising and access to research opportunities might work better for an individual student. We have noticed that many young faculty at top institutions have come out of these programs. It should not be too hard to ask if and where recent graduates have gone on to PhD programs.</p>
<p>Also, while students might be ill-advised to enter Ph.D. programs if they are not funded, some students graduate before they are ready to apply to these programs. Some might have hit their stride or discovered latent interests or talents late in their college career, and need to do more coursework to acquire pre-requisite skills, raise a low GPA, get more experience through an internship or volunteer work, or figure out just where they might want to specialize or who they want to work with. It is nice not to have to wait for an employer to fund post-bac work. </p>
<p>Also, it is not uncommon for a student to lose their funding late in the game when a PhD is almost complete, and a financial cushion allows a student some wriggle room at this stage.</p>
<p>I agree with apprenticeprof. My son’s high school friend, who was a good but not outstanding student in high school, wanted to go to Juniata to major in biology, but even with financial aid the cost was too high for his family, so he went to Shippensburg, a PA state system school not known for excellence in the sciences. He did very well in his courses and research and received high acclaim from his professors. He went on to a funded PhD program at Princeton.</p>
<p>I don’t know the kid in question so can’t speak to ‘fit’ but value is another matter. My recollection is that they live in the PNW, so if the student returns here the prestige value of Wesleyan will be next to nil. Whitman, Grinnell and Lawrence in that order would offer more prestige value. My cousin graduated from Williams (in philosophy no less!) and returned to PNW rather than staying east coast. Nobody had heard of her school and in interviews it read as a random third rate LAC. Again, Wesleyan may have great value as the perfect fit and academic experience for OP kid, I don’t argue that at all, but as a piece of paper degree in hand I would be careful not to over estimate it. She did ultimately get a PhD in Philosophy at a large east coast state school and is now an adjunct and mom but didn’t feel like the “fancy” undergrad was a particular help professionally. As she reported it, had she wanted to go to NY and work for someone’s dad it would have been a whole different matter.</p>
<p>@alcibiade, I think there is a reason the OP has not answered some of the questions. He is likely at odds with his spouse AND there is more money on the table from Bard he has not mentioned. If he were being more straightforward with us, he might get more sympathy from me. In fact, I have sympathized with many a poster struggling over the range of costs and quality for a top student like the OP’s son. But I don’t have a lot of patience for parents who indicated they would pay, then renege with no good reason (don’t need money for retirement or younger siblings, no downturn in jobs or health, etc).</p>
<p>I don’t think anyone is obligated to share every detail just because you asked them to. You infer a lot. Maybe they didn’t mention the colleges in between because those have already been ruled out for non-financial reasons. That sounds logical to me given that it sounds like they’d be sold on 'Wes were it not for the full ride from ASU turning their heads. I don’t understand why you feel the need to be so aggressive, it feels like you’re interrogating the OP. They did NOT say they would not pay for the more expensive school, there has been no mention whatsoever of telling S that school is off the table, you just made that part up.</p>
<p>And for them, it’s arguably better to do a Masters at a respectable/elite program…even paid to prove themselves and have another set of recommendations to apply for the PhD program. Better if it’s 1-2 years than doing so for the entire length of a PhD program which could average as much as 8+ years in some humanities/social science fields. </p>
<p>And if they end up remaining uncompetitive for PhD programs afterwards or worse, failed to get into such Masters programs*, they need to reconsider whether pursuing a PhD is a viable enterprise altogether. In fact, there may be other reasons to consider this question even if one is a viable applicant for a variety of other reasons. </p>
<p>This came up in recent conversations with a few friends who are finishing up undergrad/Masters and have only received admission to a few lower-tiered PhD programs in humanities/social science fields I’m familiar with without any funding whatsoever. </p>
<p>The general consensus in such circumstances is to find a regular job and demonstrate continued interest in the field and reapply the following year. One older college friend recounted how he was rejected for a natural sciences PhD program 5 years in a row before being offered a fully funded place at HYP because that department happened to have openings for 2 students in his subfield and he was one of the ones accepted. </p>
<ul>
<li>If available, separate Masters programs are generally much easier to gain admission to than PhD programs at the same given university. Some departments automatically shift their weakest PhD program applicants to the Masters program.<br></li>
</ul>
<p>Nobody is obligated to share every detail. But generally people are willing to answer questions. This poster didn’t share that there were any “in between” choices until specifically asked about Lawrence (and asked more than once). And won’t answer the question at all whether his son has any merit on the table from Bard. Maybe his son has $25K or $30K year from Bard – but he really only wants you to compare $220K to “free”.</p>
<p>Heck, maybe I have not inferred enough. Maybe the OP is divorced, and his second spouse doesn’t want him to pay even though he can… thus the push for “free” vs. $220K. Not saying that is the case… but when you post on an open forum, you will get a variety of opinions. And if you don’t provide enough information, people will speculate.</p>
<p>Thanks again everyone for the helpful and thoughtful advice. Intparent and Hunt: as I write this, I’m downloading my last five years of tax returns and will wait with bated breath for your final judgment of my character and fitness as a parent. Just Kidding. Please stop praying on people that come to this otherwise excellent site for advice and counsel. </p>
<p>OP: You seem to be an occasional - or one time - user of CC. I’ve judged you and decided you’re a parent who is struggling with a dilemma and figured you could garner some valuable information and differing POV’s. </p>
<p>You may have noticed that some ‘advisers’ seem to make CC a large part of daily living and as such will be compelled to lecture and hound you. If one questions their advice one can get quite bullied. :> Smile and wave…smile and wave.</p>
<p>IIRC, Bard isn’t particularly known for its generous aid. It says on its website that about 2/3 of the students receive some sort of aid and the average “Bard scholarship” is $29,808 while the total cost is $62,800. I wouldn’t count on OP hiding some vital fact that his son is getting boatloads of aid from Bard. Chances are, he’s not.</p>
<p>In any case, I think it’s valid to start questioning if that degree from Wes is worth the $220K or even the degree from Lawrence is worth $160K compared to the ‘free’ ASU’s honor college. Most kids and parents probably don’t put relative prices on these schools UNTIL they actually see the financial aid packages. I mean, I have given my daughter a figure per year what we can afford. But I haven’t really thought if College A is worth the X thousands of dollars premium over College B.</p>
<p>It’s always hard to turn down ‘free’, no matter what the other cost is. </p>
<p>FWIW, if your son doesn’t know what he wants to do, it is almost better to go to a larger school where there are more choices. I say, almost, because the smaller environment might provide more guidance (but not necessarily).</p>
<p>Ah, @dietz199, so your judgment (with limited information, you will notice that the OP carefully isn’t responding to open questions) is clearly more accurate. And you mentioned differing POVs – why are you so hostile to one that does not match yours, and questions whether the OP has given complete information? If you look through my posts, I have given some advice that could be useful – give the kid some choices with the finances of their different options (including taking out subsidized loans for Wes if they qualify), but go back for accepted student days and let the kid decide. But there is more to this story than you are hearing – or the OP would have readily answered the questions asked.</p>
<p>People, get a grip. Folks post on an internet message board because they want the anonymity it provides. They want to see if there is perspective they haven’t considered. They want to learn if someone 3,000 miles away has different data than they do which could lead them to change their mind.</p>
<p>They don’t come here because they want to divulge every single fact about their lives, and they don’t come here generally to be told they are short-sighted, narrow minded provincials.</p>
<p>Although I am a HUGE Wesleyan fan (huge) I gotta say, nobody has posted facts here which would be at all compelling to me if I were the OP.</p>
<p>OP- hugs to you. Not an easy decision but your kid sounds fantastic and will likely take advantage of any opportunities which come his way regardless of where he goes.</p>
<p>I don’t disagree with you–getting funded at the top graduate programs does involve having a faculty mentor at your undergraduate program who’s willing to call colleagues and go to bat for his/her student. (I’m making the assumption that the student has a very high GPA and strong GRE scores) I guess the question is where will you find that faculty member? I’m inclined to think that it might be more likely at a small LAC where profs actually teach most of the courses and get to know their students–especially the students who are the academic superstars. </p>
<p>I’m not saying that if the OP’s son goes to the Honors Program at Arizona State he won’t get into a doctoral program–all I’m saying is that he might optimize his chances by going to his other two choices. The article linked below shows PhD feeder schools by various departments (philosophy isn’t included–unless it was categorized under social sciences).</p>
<p>Ultimately, though it’s the person who controls the funding (in this case the OP) who makes the final call and if spending as much as is required for Wesleyan or Lawrence is going to make the OP nuts, then he/she shouldn’t do it. In the end, it’s his call and his money.</p>
<p>Philosophy is usually under humanities, where the linked chart above lists the “California State System” as the top undergraduate origin for PhD students (assuming that they mean California State Universities (not Universities of California), these have about 391,000 undergraduates (338,000 full-time-equivalent), but only about a quarter or fewer of these are in liberal arts majors including humanities, social studies, and science).</p>