If anyone cares... update on Michael Vick

Parent Cafe
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<p>Vick got bad legal advice. He should have gone to trial. He wouldn’t get any more time and he might get a hung jury or even an aquital. As it is he is going to go to jail and lose $22 million in signing bonuses and salary on top of that. The witnesses against him are scumbags, snitches, and they were pressured by the prosecutors.</p>

<p>What is so bad about what he did? Half you people having a cow over this would fight to the death to preserve partial birth abortion. They are dogs for crying out load. What do you think they do in the wild? What do you think rover would do to the house cat given half a chance or half a provocation.</p>

<p>Heck we skin cows alive (or I should say illegal aliens skin cows alive as that is another job Americans won’t do). Anybody ever been to a chicken ranch? How about a medical primate research lab?</p>

<p>Dog fighting might n ot be what I would pick to do for fun. It is not part of my culture, but recognize that people can have somewhat different cultural values without being monsters. None of us would be here if we weren’t eating other life forms every day.</p>

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<p>higherlead- What planet are you on? No way would he have been acquitted by a jury. Hope you have a nice Vick jersey to wear.</p>

<p>I bet you can get some good deals on jerseys right now. Maybe my dog would like one?</p>

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<p>I heard somebody is on ebay selling Michael Vick football cards–that his dog chewed on.</p>

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I would say the women’s behavior was pretty logical. There is no stigma to out of wedlock births any more. It would not surprise me if the women were also born out of wedlock. They chose to bear a child with a wealthy athlete which would allow them to associate their children with the name of an athlete and also to receive substantially higher child support than choosing to have the child of some guy next door. I suspect the women are receiving praise from their friends and families on their decisions, rather than the condemnation they should receive. The person who behaved illogically is Travis Henry. When his money runs out, his child support won’t.</p>

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<p>So you believe that women who have out-of-wedlock births should be condemned by their friends and family?</p>

<p>Sorry, I guess this is touching on politics, but I’m just surprised, because in another thread you were lauding Russian efforts to increase the out-of-wedlock birth rates as a great thing for men.</p>

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Bearing children out of wedlock means a child starts out with a disadvantage when compared to a child born inside a marriage. (Yes, I realize there are always exceptions; I am talking about numbers of people, not specific individuals). It is called one parent versus two parents. Parents should always be trying to obtain the best for their children and that usually means having a father actively involved in the child’s life. When a woman puts her own needs ahead of her child’s needs, her behavior should be condemned. Unfortunately, a bet these nine women will be praised by their friends and families even though they will have only half the child they could have had.</p>

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I wasn’t lauding it. I was describing what Russia is doing to reverse its population decline.</p>

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<p>So is it only the women who should be treated with condemnation by their friends and family? Or should men be condemned too? I didn’t hear you mention.</p>

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<p>You really think a child born out of wedlock only counts for “half a child?” </p>

<p>Please show me some statistics to suggest that when you control for SES, children born out of wedlock are only half as worthy, intelligent, accomplished or likeable as children whose parents were married at the time of birth. </p>

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<p>Funny how you condemn mothers who are actually taking care of their children but have not said a word against the absentee fathers.</p>

<p>And if women simply abstained from becoming mothers if they aren’t married as you suggest–how do you “consider the needs” of children who don’t exist? Wouldn’t giving birth to a child be more considerate of its needs than not giving birth to it? Or do you believe the children of unwed mothers are better off if they were never born?</p>

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<p>“higherlead- What planet are you on? No way would he have been acquitted by a jury.”</p>

<p>You have only heard alleged facts from the prosecution. One of the things pleading guilty does is prevent you and your attorney fron presenting a defense. Would prosecutors go after some toothless redneck yokel for this with the same resources and ruthlessness that they are going after Nichael Vick a poor Black kid who through hard work became a successful NFL QB? I think not.</p>

<p>Why don’t we put these kinds of resources into going after real criminals? We have paedophiles and child rapists out walking the street - look at those college kids executed in a NJ schoolyard by a guy with a rap sheet as long as your arm and we are destroying Vick because he likes to watch dogs fight - allegedly? How many Americans every sunday tune in to an NFL game to see the QB get blindsided by a massive tightend or a receiver get get nailed? Who is the real subhuman here? Somebody who like to watch human blood sports or two dogs fight?</p>

<p>No dogfighting is not to my taste but it is no more inhumane than a lot of other things that polite society finds perfectly acceptable and these are animals after all. I tink he deserves a defense and a day in court and I don’t think he would end up the worse for it.</p>

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<p>Vick probably knows more about the situation than anyone, and he decided otherwise.</p>

<p>Let’s face it, Vick’s lawyers could have made millions by defending him in front of a jury. If they recommended he plead, there’s a good reason.</p>

<p>It’s not like he’s relying on public defenders. If you want to feel sorry for someone not having a fair hearing, feel sorry for the first of the Jena Six to go to trial. When he refused to plead guilty, his public defender was so angry that he refused to mount a defense–would not even call one witness. The public defender also refused to allow the 17 year old’s parents in the courtroom, even though they would not be called as witnesses, and did not challenge the composition of the all-white jury pool in a case full of racial issues. Talk about someone alone and undefended!</p>

<p>Unlike Michael Vick, this young man did not have the option to shop around for someone who would defend him in court, and unlike Michael Vick, he’s now facing 22 years in prison, even though some prosecution witnesses testified that they weren’t even sure he was involved in what happened.</p>

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<p>Comparisons between partial birth abortion and killing dogs are a fruitless path. Vick did not kill dogs because someone’s life was in danger, and could be saved by killing a dog. And before anyone spouts off about how few partial birth abortions originate due to a mother’s health so they therefore have no validity in enacting laws, tell that to the mothers whose lives are in jeopardy, or their husbands, or their kids that they already have. </p>

<p>Due to moving two kids into their college residences last week, I was not following the previous Vick thread, so forgive me if this is repetitious. I’ll tell you what is so bad about what he did. He killed dogs, not for the sustenance they provide, but because they became an inconvenience for him. Higherlead, you are completely dismissing the emotional value that pets play in people’s lives by questioning the significance of their presence when you ask why is what he did so bad. And yes, I know that other cultures value different animals differently, and some eat dogs. But we don’t do that, so it disturbs people, and rightly so, who welcome the benefits that the companionship of owning a pet brings. When I visit people in nursing homes and assisted living facilities, most of them now have adopted pets, whether that be cats, dogs or birds. Why? Well, not because studies have shown that pets create misery in people’s lives, but because they provide warmth, companionship, loyalty and entertainment, among many other experiences. The health care agency I work for provides pet therapy for people who have an infinity toward dogs, because it unquestionably brings joy and pleasure in the lives of those, who for one reason or another, do not have pets anymore, but miss having them around. Medicare/Medicaid does not pay for this service, so it is provided on a volunteer basis (after careful scrutiny of dogs who have passed pet therapy classes) because people believe so strongly in the benefits of the healing touch of pets. What about seeing eye dogs? Trained dogs also provide great resources for law enforcement agencies, and there are even dogs trained to predict seizures coming on in humans, and communicate these seizures to them so that they can take proper precautions. Dogs are valuable assets in our culture, and Vick exploited them for his own sick needs.</p>

<p>What Vick did, was instigate a slap in the face of anyone who acknowledges the healing component of dogs; his motivation was purely violent entertainment in a culture where this kind of behavior is not acceptable anymore. When we know better, we do better. I remember when I was growing up in Texas, our dogs were never inside dogs, nor were they fenced in (in typical residential neighborhoods); all dogs basically roamed the neighborhood. Of course, that’s why my dog was hit by a car and killed. Now people know better - that there are many reasons to contain dogs, one among them to prolong their lives, and most people responsibly do that now. Around our community, if someone sees a dog roaming around with no caretaker near, they call the cops right away, because they know the sooner the dog is either returned to their owner, or taken to the animal shelters until claimed, the less likely they are to be hit by a car, or get in a fight with another animal (around here it’s coyotes being displaced by new construction), and be killed.</p>

<p>There’s a shift in our culture as it pertains to pets (not necessarily animals that provide sustenance). Ranches in general that are in operation to produce food and clothing, raise these animals for purposes that are generally accepted to be necessary to provide nutrition and protection, not to provide the emotional benefits of pets. Vick only wanted the dogs for the purpose of entertaining people who get off on violence and gambling.</p>

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<p>“What is so bad about what he did? Half you people having a cow over this would fight to the death to preserve partial birth abortion. They are dogs for crying out load. …No dogfighting is not to my taste but it is no more inhumane than a lot of other things that polite society finds perfectly acceptable. …”</p>

<p>The comparison to partial birth abortion does not compute with me either, even though I’m not supportive of late-term abortions. … The problem I think many people have with what Vick did is that dogs have long been regarded in our society as special companions–“man’s best friend,” if you will. Whether they are or aren’t our “best friends,” to have dogs fight to the death for our pleasure, entertainment, and profit is disgusting beyond all measure. I don’t know how anyone could be so void of feeling as to think otherwise.</p>

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<p>No longer allegedly. He is now guilty. Vick destroyed himself. Any white player would have met the same or worse.</p>

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<p>Someone told me that the NAACP is saying that Vick has being persecuted over this because of his race. I disagree. He was involved in something despicable, and I really don’t think anyone cares if he’s black, white, or purple. He’ll suffer the consequences.</p>

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<p>Actually, I don’t think the NAACP has said that.</p>

<p>MSNBC “quoted” Al Sharpton as saying it. But they lifted the quote from a satire page that had a “blog” from Al Sharpton talking about white QBs and dolphin-punching or something, and was clearly labelled as satire. Very sloppy work.</p>

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Those are your words, not mine. I don’t agree with you.</p>

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Do your own reasearch. It is common sense that a typical child will benefit from having two loving parents rather than one. This is especially true if that child has more and more brothers and sisters who seek attention from the single parent. There are all sorts of studies showing children born out of wedlock are more like to engage in crime, experience alcohol abuse, etc.</p>

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Absentee fathers are just as bad. Being a seed doner does not make one a true father. </p>

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Needs of children who don’t exist? Are you kidding me? You are telling me children who don’t exist can have needs? Your post presupposes the existence of a child before the child is born. Sorry, but nobody exits until he or she is conceived. (unless of course, you believe in reincarnation). (If a child could exist before it was conceived, surely you would support a ban on abortion.)</p>

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<p>Please, don’t morph this thread ito a discussion on abortion, or it, too, will likely be aborted.</p>

<p>Now, back to Michael Vick—From my understanding, his plea of guilty to aspects of dogfighting was to avoid federal racketeering charges, which carry a much stiffer penalty. It is all legal maneuvering. Exactly how much “hands-on” involvement Vick had in the day-to-day operations of the facility remains, I believe, still somewhat unclear and the focus of hearsay. The whole idea of dogfighting (and cockfighting) is distasteful, especially to people with domesticated dogs (dont know about roosters :slight_smile: ). Vicks dogs were anything but housepets. This does not excuse the behaviour of anyone involved in dogfighting, but I would not expect aggressive pit bulls to be handled the same way as, say, someone’s toy poodle, yet many tend to envision all dogs in the same “cute” light. Here in the south we all too often her of pit bulls (and occasionally chows) attacking other dogs or little children who mistakenly wander into their yards. Awful pictures hit the news of little kids bitten up, and all to often, killed by agressive pit bulls. I do not know if these were “pets” or otherwise, but it reminds me of that couple whose dog attacked and killed a little girl in an apt building a few years back. Didn’t the owners go to jail for failing to control their dog? My point is that what is distasteful, I think, is that dogs involved in dogfighting are killed for not being aggressive enough. That is disgusting. In all fairness, as someone above pointed out, human contact sports have become quite aggressive. Players often slam their heads together (with helmets on) to get pumped up for a game. There is a fine line between a hard tackle and unnecessary roughness. How many of us feel disappoionted if we go to a hockey game and don’t get to witness at least one fight?? It seems to be part of the sport. So, it doesn’t surprise me that some professional sports players lose their objectivity as to what is cruel, what is aggression and what is sport.</p>

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<p>Actually, you are, by insisting that unmarried women should “put their children’s needs first” by refusing to conceive or bear them. The only way an unmarried woman can be doing a child a disservice by bringing it on this earth is if you believe that an illegitimate child is better off not being born. I simply don’t believe this.</p>

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<p>Again, show me some studies controlled for SES. Not everything that seems intuitive is borne out by research. That’s kind of the point of research. If you could just guess everything based on your hunches about the world, there would be no need for science. </p>

<p>Then of course, is the whole issue that having a wedding ring is no guarantee of a loving father for one’s children. </p>

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<p>If sports culture is responsible, I think it probably happens long before professional or even the college level.</p>

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<p><a href=“http://media.www.dailyutahchronicle.com/media/storage/paper244/news/2002/08/26/Feature/Study.Looks.At.OneParent.Homes-262687.shtml[/url]”>http://media.www.dailyutahchronicle.com/media/storage/paper244/news/2002/08/26/Feature/Study.Looks.At.OneParent.Homes-262687.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And actually, research shows that only non-minority children seem to have lower academic achievement or juvenile delinquency in one-parent homes.</p>

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<p>For those who would minimize the barbarity of dogfighting, one other aspect of the issue that affects those outside the venture…the number of domesticated family pets ‘abducted’ by these creeps to ‘train’ their dogs maim and kill. Makes me sick to think of some poor defenseless family pooch going face to face with a vicious pit bull. That family pet means the world to someone and NOTHING to people like Michael Vick.</p>