<p>None of the Patriot League Schools has anything to offer the League in terms of either upgraded academics or athletics that Duke and Georgetown have. Georgetown SFS and Duke Medical School are known throughout the world with a level of respect equal to or exceeding any Ivy League program. Bucknell, Lafayette and the like have no program or programs approaching this level of recognition. And when was the last time a Patriot League school won an NCAA championship in a revenue (Georgetown and Duke have have four NCAA b-ball crowns between them) sport? </p>
<p>There must be something in it for the original eight if an expansion is to take place.</p>
<p>None of the Patriot League Schools has anything to offer the League in terms of either upgraded academics or athletics that Duke and Georgetown have. Georgetown SFS and Duke Medical School are known throughout the world with a level of respect equal to or exceeding any Ivy League program. Bucknell, Lafayette and the like have no program or programs approaching this level of recognition. And when was the last time a Patriot League school won an NCAA championship in a revenue (Georgetown and Duke have have four NCAA b-ball crowns between them) sport? </p>
<p>There must be something in it for the original eight if an expansion is to take place.</p>
<p>Also, from a very practical standpoint, the various Patriot Schools have serious enrollment discrepancies versus the Ivy League Schools which would make mounting a full 24 to 30 team m/f effort impossible. All have freshman classes substantially smaller than the Ivy League Schools.</p>
<p>(This would also be a problem for the Service Academies with respect to the 15 or so women’s sports since the academies are about 85% male.)</p>
<p>I think that the problem with this thread is that all possible choices have too many extraneous reasons for not being part of the league: Duke and Stanford* are very new (along w/ many of the other reasons brought up in the thread), Colgate, Bucknell, and Lafeyette are not of/near the same academic calibre, Bowdoin, Tufts, Georgetown, MIT, and John Hopkins share many students of the same academic standing as the Ivies, but are of abstract sizes and characters, and are leaders in programmes that fall (to an extent) outside the realms of undergraduate Ivy League programmes (i.e. premed, gov, IR, etc. focuses**). To boot, many in this group are more undergraduate focused than is the norm for Ivies. Thus, they would be out-of-place, and schools like Amherst, Williams and Oberlin are very much LAC’s. I think that the fact that the Ivy League is primarily a sports league is still formost, keeping in mind the academic qualities of many schools of the NESCAC and other southern/western schools that are academically meritorious. </p>
<p><em>This being said, Cornell is young also…highlighting the sports nature of the league.
*</em> Yes, some if the Ivies have concentrations in some of these areas; but the universities/colleges listed above are VERY focused in those respective areas (dependent upon university).</p>
<p>Holy Cross and Colgate have student bodies half the size of the typical Ivy.
To mount 26 to 30 teams at a competitive level, especially without the benefit of a major revenue sport with serious TV money, is an impossibility for both unless they recruited nothing but athletes for close to one-third the size of their freshman classes. And while each is a strong LAC, neither would be recognized in a Paris bistro, London Theatre lobby or Tokyo Airport Lounge (the way Georgetown or Duke would).</p>
<p>Holy Cross and Colgate both already compete (successfully too) against Ivy League schools in a number of sports. Same with some of the other Patriot League schools.</p>
<p>Dartmouth, Brown and Penn aren’t being recognized in a Paris bistro, London Theatre lobby or Tokyo Airport Lounge any more than Colgate, Holy Cross and Bucknell are. I don’t think Duke is really any more recognized abroad either for that matter (not that it matters for what we’re talking about here anyway). The fact that the Ivy schools have varying degrees of grad schools I don’t see as a relevant issue here; however, I would agree to some degree about the size of the underdraduate student body. I think on this thread or a similar one was some discussion of what it would take for Williams to upgrade its sports to a Div I-AA level. </p>
<p>What extra sports do the Ivys play that Colgate and Holy Cross don’t play? Would they need to play these extra sports anyway? As it is, Penn and Columbia have no ice hockey team and Columbia has no lacrosse team either. These are two of the five most prominent men’s team sports. Would Colgate and Holy Cross really need to field fencing, sailing and whatever the other obscure extra sports are when two of the Ivys don’t currently field teams in more mainstream sports?</p>
<p>I have just spent the past 5 minutes in uncontrollable laughter. I am now composed and can comment. What was I thinking about. See below:</p>
<p>a) a Notre Dame versus any Ivy football game.
b) an MIT versus Notre Dame football game
c) a Washington U versus Notre Dame football game.</p>
<p>Notre Dame probably has two dozen athletes than can run a 40 yard dash in under 4.3 seconds. The entire Ivy League probably has none and MIT has probably never had such an athlete. </p>
<p>Notre Dame might shut out the entire Ivy League over ten games as they saw their television revenue go to zero.</p>
<p>Holy Cross and Colgate also have a significant name recognition problem domestically too. Not only would each not be recognized in London, Paris or Tokyo but I dare say each would not be recognized in Seattle, Dallas or Des Moines either.</p>
<p>The current eight need to gain something from an expansion and none of the Patriot League Schools has anything distinct to offer the Ivy League.</p>
<p>I’m not sure how important a criteria this is. In Seattle, Des Moines and Dallas, if people haven’t heard of Williams, Amherst, Colgate, Holy Cross, they probably haven’t heard of Dartmouth or Brown, either. Quinnipiac recently entered the ECACHL over Holy Cross and would have to think that less people have heard of it than Holy Cross. </p>
<p>Going by what people have heard of in other parts of the country isn’t that meaningful since the vast majority don’t care about stuff like that. My brother was telling me about a game show he had recently seen where it came down to the final question for the contestant (from OK) of name four of the eight Ivy League schools to win $500,000. After getting three correct, his fourth guess was Colgate and he lost.</p>
<p>People forgot to mention Columbia and bball because Columbia is not known for bball, majority of its students don’t care, and until recently, they’ve been like the Knicks – known for some greatnes in the past, but plenty of losing records.</p>
<p>Why on earth does “name recognition” come into play, or whether or not a school has a grad school? The Ivy League is an ATHLETIC league - if the league were to add new teams (it’s not going to happen), it would be schools that compete at the same ATHLETIC level.</p>