I remember reading this somewhere - even without a 4.0/2400 (now 1600)/36, an applicant with a high enough GPA/SAT/ACT score becomes indistinguishable from others and the EC’s are what count.
If this is true, can anyone say what the approximate cutoff for each is? I haven’t taken the SAT/ACT yet but I got a PSAT score of 1320 (720 Reading, 600 Math - very lopsided) and while I plan on studying to improve my score, I fully expect not getting a perfect 1600. I’m very worried about the GPA though, because my GPA is horrible - my school includes yearly grades, no weight for honors (likely because foreign languages and CTE classes offer no honors), and no pluses or minuses on transcripts - I had 2 B’s and will almost definitely get 3 B’s this year, but I can probably pull my uw up to a 3.88 by senior year. I’m worried less about my actual GPA than the fact that I have so many B’s on my transcript, however.
You don’t have a real SAT score yet, and of course, you might be able to improve. Your GPA is what it is, though you will have an opportunity in seniro year to improve that too, but you won’t be able to do too much even if you get all As. What exactly is worrying you? You should be looking at colleges that are within the stats you have currently. You should also look for colleges where your stats are well above the 50th percentile. Those should be safety schools. If your test score goes up significantly, you can feel more comfortable with thinking you can hopefully get in to your match schools, and also try for a couple of reaches.
Scroll through the current posts on the college admissions forum. You will quite a few right now form students who are surprised at all the rejections. You don’t want to be one of those students this time next year. Focus on improving your grades the best you can, and improving your SAt test score. Also consider taking the ACT, as you might find it suits you better. Good luck.
As a parent with a graduating senior with high stats and lots of high stat friends, it seems that GPA and test scores matter a lot less than most of us thought, at least for elite and elitish schools. Seems like 32/33 1400 and 3.8 are good benchmarks to shoot for. Acceptances at elite schools are quite random but those numbers will at least get you past the initial cut off. We haven’t seen any appreciable increase in acceptances for the kids who had 4.0 and 36 vs. the kids who had a few Bs and slightly lower test scores. There are a few schools like Vandy that appear to be test score shopping to climb the rankings. And there are others, like the UCs that barely seem to care about test scores.
I would try not to get any more Bs but realize that they won’t kill you. My oldest had at least 4 Bs in high school and got into a top 10 school and a couple of top 20 schools. And some of his friends with perfect 4.0s are still waiting for their first acceptances.
One key to life is figuring out how to be successful. Bs are not the giant killer some people believe. Hi Scores will not guarantee admission to highly competitive schools. Figure out what kind of school you want and select accordingly. Make sure you have a safety you can afford and would be HAPPY to attend. Everything else is gravy.
@notveryzen Wow. that’s actually pretty surprising to hear. I’ve always heard that a transcript tops all - a B isn’t that bad, but still rouses suspicion and usually hurts you. I plan on taking an easier courseload next year (technically harder, but I’ll have an online class so I can do other things during that period. I’m really curious as the what the cutoff for GPA, I know more than a few at my (extremely competitive, rigorous, especially my year) school with 2300+ from the old SAT, and it really gets lumped together in my head.
@“Erin’s Dad” Would national awards from midle and high school? I know several at my school who have them, but the organization isn’t as widely known as Forensics, Scholastic A&W, or Siemens, etc.
I’ve already figured what schools I would love to attend, and have a safety or two (I already love) in mind. Not quite sure what the gravy saying means, however.
SAT scores of 2150 and higher are considered in the same class. There are so few up there, and the differences where admissions stats are concerned is less than one percent. That 1% differential is likely contributed from places like Caltech, where the middle SAT math is 800, and the three or four other schools with SAT averages that aren’t too much less than Caltech’s, such as Havard, Chicago, Yale - and even Amherst. Imagine that. A 1500 puts you in the bottom half of Caltech’s applicant pool! Of course, Caltech is tinier than most high schools, so they can really narrow their range as much as they want. Further, their first-year curriculum is set-up for people who have scored that highly.
@IrisShadow Grades do matter but they are just one data point for elite schools. Same with test scores. But there are a lot of kids with 3.9s and 33-36 Act scores. Imagine you were an admission counselor and had to look through 1000 of those applications. They would all blend together and you would start looking for something else. My kid got a 35 on the ACT. Some of his friends got 36s, some got 32 or 33. And I know all these kids and there isn’t much correlation between the test score and the awesomeness of the kid. Same thing with GPAs. They all have between a 3.8 and a 4.0 but again the most impressive kids don’t necessarily have the highest gpa. They spend a lot of time doing things outside of school and don’t focus as much on grade grubbing or padding their gpa with easy classes. A couple of kids with perfect GPAs and test scores are facing the reality that it wasn’t enough to get them into their dream school.
Honestly to me it looks like 1400+ and 3.8+ is just a blur. A 3.8 is not that different from a 4.0. Colleges realize that a 1400 is not incredibly different from a 1600 but the 1600 is just more standout. I can’t see someone getting rejected because of those scores. It would most likely be from sub par essays/recommendations or their application was lacking in some areas.
@notveryzen@a20171 is there something inherently special about 3.8, or would a 3.74 (with exceptional rigor, high WGPA, top 5% rank, and upward trend) be lumped into that category? I would think that would show at least as much academic competence as a slightly less rigorous 3.8, but at the same time it seems like you never see anyone under a 3.8 get into these top schools.
More specifically, does a 3.74 vs. 3.8 make a significant enough difference in perception that it would be advisable, for instance, to apply to a desired school RD instead of EA simply to be able to apply with an established GPA over 3.8?
@nac7890 I think context is hugely important. Not all 3.7s are created equal. We all hope that the adcoms are looking at your school profile and your course rigor to tell them what the gpa means. Plus there is the upward trend issue. And if all the As are in pottery and entry level classes and all the Bs are in science and math classes, that might indicate a problem. Naviance is your friend if you have access to it at your school. We have it and the scattergrams make it pretty obvious which schools have bright line cut offs for test scores or GPAs. Hint, it’s not the schools you think it will be. The average gpa and test scores for admitted students at our high school for UCB are higher than they are for Stanford or most of the Ivies.
A 3.8 is just what you hear as being the average for top schools. Of course, a 3.7 wouldn’t kill an app but you’d be slightly under what most of the applicant pool has which is not what you want.
3.9+, 1500+ or 34+ is pretty much the cutoff where improvement doesn’t matter at pretty much every school. A 3.8 and 1400+ might hurt you a tiny bit at the very top but it is still a very respectable combination. A 3.7 is more or less the soft cutoff for HPYSMC and will require some top-tier hooks, ECs, or essays to overcome, even moreso than the typical applicant. 3.5 is basically the hard cap. 3.5+Near Perfect Test scores+Hooks+National level ECs is the only reasonable way to get into the top schools.
I think this is true for some elite schools, but not for all of them. Some schools are attempting to “move up the ladder” of reputation and rankings, and they will value the highest standardized test scores more highly so that they look better in comparison to the schools they feel they are competing with. It has been suggested that Vanderbilt, Wash U, Rice and Tufts all take this approach. Students with sky-high test scores fare better in admissions there.
With other elite schools, it is clear that once you get past a certain cutoff point of grades and scores, they are looking at all the applicants as qualified, and cherry-picking out the ones that they find most interesting.
@ThankYouforHelp I think you are right on about those schools attempting to climb the ladder. Those schools in particular also seem to be pretty yield sensitive so in addition to having high test scores, you need to show them that you really want to go there. The results from our area indicate that just a high test score won’t get you into those schools. You need to visit, interact with the staff, write compelling why XXX essays, and make sure they feel like they are the belle of your ball.
My son has a lot of extreme stat friends that are getting rejected at these places because they just dashed off an app thinking their 3.99/2350 was going to get them an admission if they didn’t make the cut at CHYMPS.
