<p>I love Quakers.</p>
<p>Aw, who am I kidding? I love everybody.</p>
<p>Imagine there’s no Heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky</p>
<p>goo goo g’joob
goo goo g’joob</p>
<p>What do you mean by you’re ‘a Christian’? For most people that means they believe in some particular sect or another. If they believe in that sect then why wouldn’t they agree with the teachings of it? If they don’t believe in parts of the teachings then they don’t really believe in that particular sect so why are they there? Maybe by saying ‘Christian’ you don’t mean any particular sect in which case you get to make up whatever philosophies you want to ‘believe in’ and which ones you don’t. Maybe that’s why there are so many sects in this world.</p>
<p>The OP does get to make up whatever philosophies he or she wants to believe in. That’s a privilege granted to anyone who has a brain.</p>
<p>A Christian believes in the divinity of Christ. There is no other qualification to call oneself a Christian. If you want to call yourself a Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinist, Baptist, Methodist, Mormom, Jehovah’s Witness, et cetera, then yes, there are specific things you have to believe in. But “Christian” is a pretty open field.</p>
<p>Question for those who think there’s no hell: What happens to evil men, like Hitler, Stalin and so on?</p>
<p>Of course God is benevolent, whether or not He sends people to Hell. If we are to believe the Bible, then we know that people can be redeemed, and we do not know anyone’s internal disposition but God on Judgement day, so we have no way of knowing who has atoned for their sins and who hasn’t…so we don’t know how many souls don’t go to heaven. Second, just because Hell exists according to Christianity does not render God evil. In fact, its quite the opposite. When I was little I used to ask my parents “If God is good, how could He send anyone to Hell?” Then I had a teacher explain it to me in this way: she said that because God is all good, He cannot stand to be with evil, and if people, on Judgement Day, still reject God and with His free will do not repent for their sins, then that is their choice to side with evil and therefore God cannot coexist with evil in Heaven." Of course God wants everyone to choose Him, but he never forces it upon them. That shows how Awesome He truly is. There is no fate, only free will. Our futures may be pre-known by God, but not predetermined. We can change and choose to follow Him, but God never makes us because He is so benevolent and loving of us that he blesses us with that freedom, which comes with responsibility of course…</p>
<hr>
<p>And to the poster who wrote:
[quote]
“Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to hell.”
[quote]
</p>
<p>Christians believe that there are three ways of being baptized: the traditional Christian baptism by water, baptism by blood (dying for God/Christ/faith, aborted babies, etc. and thirdly, baptism by intent. This third way could mean something like an adult deciding to become a baptized Christian but dying in a car crash on the way to their own baptism–but they intended to be baptized, which the omniscient God would know. This last way also includes people of other religions brought up in other societies that don’t believe in the Christian God. There are people, as you said, who have never learned Christianity, and therefore don’t willingly reject its teachings for they’ve never even been exposed to them or if they have chances are they were misinformed about them (ex. radical islam). Anyways, they saying ignorance is bliss sums it up pretty well, for God knows he cannot fault those who have not been given the chance to follow Christ. However, because God is omniscient, as you have already agreed to, that means God can know whether or not in a different society, culture, family, upbringing, etc. nonbelievers would have followed Him and Christianity, and therefore he can judge them accordingly. Also, there are many nonChristians who live more of a Christian/moral lifestyle than people who are baptized with water as Christians, which God obviously would take note of…obviously people who are not baptized Christians can enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and you’d be an arrogant fool to think otherwise. Read up more on the different types of baptism if you are still confused. My feeble attempt at explaining it doesn’t do it justice.</p>
<p>The same thing can be said for atheists. Baptism by intent still applies. It applies to people who are atheists in America, or anywhere, because only God truly knows their internal dispositions and what could/would have been if they had been informed about Christianity/God differently, more accurately, in a better light, etc. That’s why we can never truly know whose sould go to Heaven…but everyone potentially can.</p>
<p>Here is some evidence for all of the above:</p>
<p>In terms of baptism by blood, martyrdom was identified early in Christian history as baptism by blood, enabling martyrs who had not been baptized by water to be saved. They died for their faith in Christ, but had not been baptized with water, but their baptism is implicit…it sort of is like baptism by intent/desire, and they show their desire is so strong because they are willing to die to prove it.</p>
<p>In terms of baptism by intent/desire, there is a ton of biblical evidence that supports it and the belief that ignorance of sin/rejecting God/not being baptized is not punishable by God:</p>
<p>Truth: God does not hold us guilty for “sins” committed in ignorance…
Proof: Gen 20:3-6 "But God came to Abimelech…and said to him… the woman which thou hast taken…is a man¹s wife. But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, LORD, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?..in the integrity of my heart and innocency…of my hands have I done this. And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; " (God justified Abimelech because he did this thing without knowledge!) </p>
<p>Truth: Little children’s sins are not held against them, because they don’t have enough knowledge to be accountable. They literally “don’t know any better,” and God accepts this as true innocency…
Proof: Deut 1:39 “Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.” (Keep in mind the symbolism of crossing the Jordan, and entering the Promised Land - it means salvation.)</p>
<p>Truth: Before the “age of accountability” little children do not know right from wrong…
Proof: Gen 8:21 “…for the imagination of man¹s heart is evil from his youth”; and
Isaiah 7:14-16 “…Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.” (Also, see Lk 2:52.) </p>
<p>Truth: God will judge us according to our knowledge of our duty.
Proof: Luke 12:47-8 “And that servant, which knew his lord¹s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.” </p>
<p>Truth: If a person were blind in regard to the requirements of the law, then that would be sufficient excuse to justify them in wrongdoing. Genuine ignorance of duty justifies the derelict, but knowledge of duty condemns him.
Proof: John 9:39-41 “And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.” </p>
<p>Truth: God doesn’t ascribe sin (or guilt) to the man who is TRULY ignorant of the law!
Proof: Rom 5:13"For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." and Rom 7:7-9 “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.” </p>
<p>Truth: No sin without knowledge of the law.
Proof: James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” </p>
<p>Truth: There is also a WILLFUL ignorance, or an ignorance for which we ARE responsible. Any transgressions which flow directly from this ignorance are still held to our account, because this ignorance is the direct result of our unbelief or our love of lies more than the truth. To embrace a lie when one knows the truth is utterly damnable.
Proof: Rom 1:19 “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them… so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools …Who changed the truth of God into a lie …And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge…God gave them over to a reprobate mind…” </p>
<p>Lastly, many religions point to Acts 10:44-48, in which various Gentiles who heard Peter preaching were converted and received the Holy Spirit prior to baptism; if baptism were necessary for salvation, these people would not have believed and received the Holy Spirit.</p>
<p>Baptism by intent/desire IS NOT something made up by the Church to make people feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Any ignorance/misinformation about God/Christianity is obviously not the fault of the ignorant/misinformed person, and therefore they cannot be held accountable for rejecting God when they do not know any better. Accordingly, God would have to use His omniscience to determine what would have been for those ignorant people if they had known the Truth. He knows whether or not they still would have rejected Him…</p>
<p>End of rant… :D</p>
<p>“A Christian believes in the divinity of Christ.” </p>
<p>Many Quakers consider themselves Christian, and do NOT believe in the divinity of Christ (which is considered speculative). Almost no Quakers are Trinitarians. We specifically reject baptism.</p>
<p>As to what books say, She seems to have written many of them, so that we could each acquaint ourselves with Her in our own way.</p>
<p>I stand corrected, mini.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don’t know what my problem is today. I’m sorry. You’re the second person I’ve done that to.</p>
<p>^^ No problem. It was probably due to the way I phrased the question. My intended emphasis was on the ‘you’ mean… i.e. how the OP themselves defined it.</p>
<p>“I stand corrected, mini.”</p>
<p>That’s okay - there aren’t many of us, and since we gave up our hats and bonnets, we are pretty much incognito. ;)</p>
<p>Read the Bible. It will tell you everything you need to know.</p>
<p>“What do you mean by you’re ‘a Christian’? For most people that means they believe in some particular sect or another. If they believe in that sect then why wouldn’t they agree with the teachings of it? If they don’t believe in parts of the teachings then they don’t really believe in that particular sect so why are they there?”</p>
<p>If the above comment was strictly adhered to, there would only be a handful of Catholics (or less!) in the US under the age of 50.</p>
<p>The original poster of this thread my want to explore Christian Science. My mom was raised Christian Science and after 8 years of Catholic Sunday School, I was so relieved when she told me they do not believe in hell. Don’t know the details, but it may be worth taking a look at. </p>
<p>Also, my very favorite thought regarding my inlaw family who all think I will be going to hell since I have not given my life to Christ, although I believe in God and in Jesus as the son of God, when they meet me in Heaven, won’t THEY be surprised!!! They will think they went to hell too!! That never fails to bring a smile to my face. They told my D she was going to hell when she was about 9 years old and she has never liked them since. Such a waste. Religion should be about unity and community, not segregation and egalitarianism.</p>
<p>To CoffeeAddict, I envy your conviction. Personally, the confounding question posed by the OP has been a life-long struggle for which I have yet to resolve. </p>
<p>The quote that I used came from a student’s humorous answer to a chem exam bonus question, which asked whether Hell is exothermic or endothermic. Many here would probably recognize the origin of the quote.</p>
<p>
The same thing that happens to all men, women, good or evil when they die. They are gone. Only the lifeless body remains which can be buried, cremated or stuffed and mounted on a wall. Doesn’t matter, the person is no more. I know the truth hurts.</p>
<p>LSkaiWalk, there’s no need to debate Jesus or the Bible about whether there is a hell or not. You will find out shortly when you die. Good luck, bud, trusting in your “opinion” when the facts are in the Bible.</p>
<p>mom4x-I suggest you and others who wish to “bet”, that they are right and the Bible is wrong, ought to go to Vegas and get all your faith on the table, go bankrupt, learn from your lesson of betting on ridiculous odds, then get your brain and humility on, read the Bible and ask Jesus to please save yourselves from hell. Good luck…you’ll need it without believing in Jesus to save you. And stop talking about religion. Those who have a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus don’t have religion. They hate religion 'cause it is man-made. Just stick with the Bible and attend a spirit-filled church, then your good to go.</p>
<p>Thanks for ramming that Bible down my throat, dplane. I’m saved now. No, really, I’m saved. No more, please.</p>
<p>You were saved at birth. The question is what do you do now?</p>
<p>The thought of having a personal relationship with a dead person makes me a bit squeamish.</p>