<p>You’re saved? Really? You’re not lying to me, are you?! Anyways, I am happy for you, particularly since I wasn’t talkin’ to ya’ll.</p>
<p>mini, I told you to read your Bible, for heaven sake! It will thrill you to no end to read that Jesus is alive. Uhmmm…that’s probably what Easter is all about. Sorry to kill your rabbeet, as you are a bit on the squeemish side.</p>
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<p>I have strong beliefs too, NJres, but I don’t call them “the truth”. You might want to try a little tact there, hombre.</p>
<p>And following up, does that - the idea that we just die when we’re gone - mean that it’s OK for people to just do as they want if they can get away with it, seeing as in your book they’d pay no penalty for evil? And why would anyone in your opinion want to do good, if their good amounted to nothing?</p>
<p>I am truly curious about that point. And thank you for answering NJres, it takes courage to touch the hard questions and no I am not claiming I have all the answers. I just think discussing the tough questions is a good thing, if we can do it peaceably and with respect for each other.</p>
<p>“mini, I told you to read your Bible, for heaven sake! It will thrill you to no end to read that Jesus is alive. Uhmmm…that’s probably what Easter is all about. Sorry to kill your rabbeet, as you are a bit on the squeemish side.”</p>
<p>I think I probably know my Bible better than you do, thank you (and I’ve been busy for some of the past 15 years rewriting parts of it), but it isn’t a contest. I’m pretty good around the Koran, Vedas, Dhammapada, too, though I much prefer Tolstoy and sometimes a good mystery novel. </p>
<p>Easter is my favorite Buddhist holiday. They rolled away the rock from the door of the tomb…and nothing was there!</p>
<p>“And following up, does that - the idea that we just die when we’re gone - mean that it’s OK for people to just do as they want if they can get away with it, seeing as in your book they’d pay no penalty for evil? And why would anyone in your opinion want to do good, if their good amounted to nothing?”</p>
<p>How about because that’s the way we are made, and without that original sin nonsense, and the even worse nonsense that someone else can take on the burden for my wrongdoings (and without my permission), we might be more likely to?</p>
<p>Heehee, mini, you’re a treat!</p>
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<p>This is what bugs me about some Christians. Some people are quite smug about the notion that it doesn’t matter what they do, because Jesus has saved them. They think that proclaiming, “I have accepted Jesus as my personal savior,” absolves them from all present and future wrongdoing.</p>
<p>[Allow me to anticipate dplane’s response: “It does!”]</p>
<p>Anyone whose beliefs include the idea that they do not bear ultimate responsibility for their actions can bite my buns. And if I’m going to Hell for believing that my sins are my own responsibility…well, sayonara!</p>
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<p>So we have no choice in what we do and become? I can’t say I see it that way, myself, I’ve always gone in like Dumbledore, we become what we choose.</p>
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<p>That’s funny, the concept of original sin always resonated with me. For one thing, it would explain why it’s so blasted hard to do good even when we want to, mean to, and try to, we still screw up. </p>
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<p>Parents carry burdens for children all the time, and friends do the same. If I fall into a ditch, is it not a good thing if someone helps me out of there if they can?</p>
<p><a href=“and%20without%20my%20permission”>quote</a>
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<p>Permission to do what, exactly?</p>
<p>:) I love a good discussion! :)</p>
<p>While I’m antagonizing…</p>
<p>In the original Greek (for that was the language the New Testament was first written in) Jesus refers to himself as “son of God,” without either “a” or “the” as an article.</p>
<p>This is important because, in common Greek (at the time Koine Greek), the absence of an article implies the indefinite article “a/an”. That is, Jesus called himself “a son of God,” not “the son of God”.</p>
<p>Why, then, does the King James Bible, the first to be translated into English, say “the son of God?”</p>
<p>Well, notice that in the King James Bible, many words are in italics. Many assume that the italics are for emphasis. They’re not. James’ appointed translators italicized words that were extrapolated from the context but weren’t actually present in the original text. This was not an attempt to deceive; it was simply good scholarly practice, a tracer to help future generations understand the translation process.</p>
<p>Therefore, when you read that Jesus called himself “the son of God” in the King James Bible, you are being told that the article “the” was not actually present in the original text. And, since the absence of an article in Greek implies the indefinite article, this means that Jesus believed himself to be “a son of God.”</p>
<p>Does this mean he wasn’t devine? Not necessarily, but it does mean that he, at least, was not God’s only devine creation. Some who seek common ground with other faiths take it to mean that all people are sons (children) of God in the same way that Jesus was, and that Jesus was really teaching about the one-ness of all people, in the same vein as Buddhists believe in the one-ness of all things. Some go on to draw parallels between Christian salvation and Buddhist Nirvana, both being the ultimate state in which all things come back to their origin, which for convenience we call God.</p>
<p>hell, satan, and the concept of pure evil exist only in the minds of those who fear them.</p>
<p>So IBfootballer, Hitler and Charles Manson and Bernie Madoff are just regular guys to you?</p>
<p>“That’s funny, the concept of original sin always resonated with me. For one thing, it would explain why it’s so blasted hard to do good even when we want to, mean to, and try to, we still screw up.”</p>
<p>If you practice it a bit more (instead of practicing religion, and waiting around for the real thing), you might get better at. It’s really not so hard, once you get used to it. ;)</p>
<p>Just get out the Bible and read it. We were not saved at birth. And it also talks about the original sin.
The King James is a hard version to read. If someone is a beginner, they might want to read The Message Bible or the Living Bible. Just to get started. NIV is good also.</p>
<p>Wow mini, so you never lie, you never hate another person, you always put others ahead of yourself? </p>
<p>It seems to be very rare that a person does much good, yet we all claim to want goodness. Is that not strange? Are you saying that no one even tries to do good, that we do not work at being better people?</p>
<p>I’ve read it. I probably know it a lot better than you do (only 'cause I’m likely to be older, and have been reading it longer.) My favorite is the New Oxford. I also read Biblical Hebrew.</p>
<p>We are saved at birth (from what, who knows?) I don’t particularly need saving by a pretty good dead guy (wasn’t a particularly good teacher, but never claimed to be). </p>
<p>“Hitler and Charles Manson and Bernie Madoff are just regular guys to you?”</p>
<p>They may very well have been, once upon a time. Before you ride them out of the human race, it might be worth your while to know them a little better.</p>
<p>“Wow mini, so you never lie, you never hate another person, you always put others ahead of yourself?”</p>
<p>I’m guilty (or innocent) of all three. You should see me on a bad day! But, knowing that I am saved at birth (not that it matters), I can work at it. I seem to be better at doing good than at violin playing. So chalk me to three parts good for every four parts pride, with a little bit of occasional humility and sense of proportion in the mix.</p>
<p>All in a day’s work.</p>
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<p>Why, I wonder, do you presume that you know me well enough to understand my faith and work? Why would you say I am “waiting around for the real thing”, when you do not know even my name, much less what I have seen and done in my time?</p>
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<p>Actually, I have read about Hitler and Manson, and in time I am sure we will find out more about Mr. Madoff. I know, for example, that Adolf Hitler was decorated for valor in World War I, that his initial standing as a politician was based on his reputation as a man of bravery and integrity. Like the many ordinary people who became Nazis, Adolf Hitler finished as a man very different from the man he started as. That’s one reason I count so much on choices, and make no mistake, evil is a choice, just as we may choose goodness.</p>
<p>Just wondering where it states in the bible that we are saved at birth.</p>
<p>“Why, I wonder, do you presume that you know me well enough to understand my faith and work?”</p>
<p>The “you” was a plural noun (remember, I’m a Quake!); sorry if you took it personally! </p>
<p>“That’s one reason I count so much on choices, and make no mistake, evil is a choice, just as we may choose goodness.”</p>
<p>Yup. The given ability to make choices is precisely how you are saved at birth.</p>
<p>“Just wondering where it states in the bible that we are saved at birth.”</p>
<p>Just wondering where it says you are damned. (not that I care, particularly; it is, after all, just a book.). Whoops! Did it again. I said “you” - I really didn’t mean “thee”.</p>
<p>Here’s another nice book, by probably the greatest living New Testament historical scholar of our time:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted-Revealing-Hidden-Contradictions/dp/0061173932/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247866725&sr=8-3[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted-Revealing-Hidden-Contradictions/dp/0061173932/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247866725&sr=8-3</a></p>
<p>In what exact scripture of the Bible does it tell us that we are saved at birth? The actual Bible, not an opinion.</p>
<p>Rather than dwelling on books and dogma <a href=“which%20might%20lead%20to%20war%20-%20it%20has%20before!”>i</a>*, may I suggest we begin with basics?</p>
<p>For example, I propose that goodness and evil exist, that there are things we can do, say, or think which could reasonably be called good or bad in nature.</p>
<p>Agreed or not? Why or why not?</p>
<p>"The actual Bible, not an opinion.'</p>
<p>There is NO such thing as an “actual Bible”.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247866955&sr=8-1[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247866955&sr=8-1</a></p>
<p>“that there are things we can do, say, or think which could reasonably be called good or bad in nature.”</p>
<p>Fine with me. I especially like the “reasonably” part. No Bibles allowed. Vedas or Korans either. No appeals to authority, religious or otherwise. “Reasonably” sounds great!</p>