<p><a href=“http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,16937,1686918,00.html[/url]”>The drone, the CIA and a botched attempt to kill bin Laden's deputy | World news | The Guardian;
<p>So we are bombing Pakistan now? Did we declare war on them and I missed it?</p>
<p>What is acceptable to us?</p>
<p>You can be sure this happened with the full knowledge and consent of the Pakistani government, which would be less sanguine about the possibility of American troops traipsing around in the mountains. </p>
<p>The bigger problem is that Pakistan, unlike Iran, already has nuclear weapons. What happens when Musharraf is overthrown?</p>
<p>If some “friendly country” had come in an blowup an restauraunt because a terrorist was in there in say, San Diego, I think Americans would be angry, but we seem to just not care so much about non-whites when they are killed</p>
<p>I agree that it was a terrible thing and I am not a supporter of hte Bush administration’s foreign policy in any way. But I find myself since 9/11 being less sympathetic to people who criticize us, even while feeling critical myself. We are still in many ways the best thing out there, for all out politicians’ blunders and foolishness and the harm our policy is doing to the lives of people far away as well as at home </p>
<p>As someone whose young adulthood pretty much coincided with the construction of the World Trade Center I suppose I am being unbecomingly ethnocentric and revealing an overly privileged worldview, but I can’t look out my window without seeing where the WTC used to be. So I also feel strongly and do not forget that women and children as well as perfectly ordinary and generally blameless men were on the planes that terrorists flew into the WTC, the ground, and the Pentagon. And that does not begin to address the thousands of people working in the buildings. Many of them were, of course, what you describe as nonwhite. I think Americans have shown themselves to be appropriately indignant at the loss of those lives. We don’t distinguish between ethnic surnames or skin tone in mourning the devastation created on September 11. It is hard to feel quite the same passion for people thousands of miles away; I know we should but most people just don’t. I don’t think it is because of ethnicity though and I think it is unfair and rather trite to say it is.</p>
<p>Had the terrorist been in San Diego, he would have been kidnapped, or taken out. (You’ve seen “Munich”). The Pakistanis responded just the way the Americans would.</p>
<p>I’m not quite sure what your point is. The U.S. could respond in one of seven ways from what I can figure: 1) Do nothing, because all terrorists are in other nations; 2) Use ground troops without permission of the host country; 3) Use ground troops with permission of the host country only; 4) Bomb without permission of the host country; 5) Bomb with permission of the host country; 6) Give bomb to the host country with the understanding that it will be used; 7) Invade the host country, overthrow its government, and do what you like. (which is what we did in Afghanistan).</p>
<p>Which do you prefer?</p>
<p>I have lived in pakistan for a couple of years and I am ashamed of America’s view on the country. The government is the best I’ve experienced (though there’s room for improvement). Musharaf has expanded freedom, especially freedom to speech to bash the government. Women are not subjugated and most Muslims there are peaceful characters simply resenting the loss of Palestine. Pakistanis are not terrorists, at most only a few are. I think it is America, rather than Pakistan, that needs good ol’ democracy.</p>
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<p>I can assure you that Musharaf being overthrown would be a major loss to Pakistan.</p>
<p>I have no informed opinion about Pakistan or what the US should do to make amends in this instance. My response is to what I preceive to be the OP’s point, which seems to be simply that we are racist nation made up of people who do not care about the sufferings of nonwhite “others”–and that is a view that I don’t accept despite being fully aware of our shortcomings.</p>
<p>“The government is the best I’ve experienced (though there’s room for improvement.”</p>
<p>I don’t necessarily disagree. And I don’t see options that (to me) look better. But when he is overthrown, what then?</p>
<p>As I said, I’m sure the bombing took place with the full knowledge and consent of the Pakistani government. What real choice would they have had, and, even if they had had one, why would they take it?</p>
<p>Mini, you forgot the option that CGM would prefer: The Pakistanis would send a police car to the house, knock on the door and ask if any terrorists were present. If so, they would read them their Miranda rights and lead them off to jail to await the appearance of their lawyers.</p>
<p>I am saying that we get totally freaked out when one of our nice white girls gets killed on vacation, yet we as a people don’t seem to feel the least bit remorseful when we kill innocent women and children.</p>
<p>So, FF, I guess its okay for us to go and bomb whereever and whatever we want, killing innocent people on the CHANCE we might get a bad guy.</p>
<p>And if Britain, say, did that here, and killed innocent AMericans because, an IRA terroist was supposed to be in a bar in New York for dinner. That would be okay with you? Cause, after all, its Britains protecting themselves (think back to the 70’s)</p>
<p>And even if our government said, okey dokey, it would be fine if they bombed us with our approval, if I understand you.</p>
<p>So. lets just go bombing all over the world just in case we get some good intelligence (yeah) and create even more unrest. We are arrogant beyond belief thinking only American’s lives have value.</p>
<p>Hypocrits</p>
<p>CGM: I still don’t get your point. Is it that we should have a national day of mourning? (I happen to agree with your point that Americans value third world lives (and especially Muslim ones) less - the government might intervene in Bosnia, not in Sudan, kill half a million children in Iraq, and even earthquake aid to Pakistan has been a pittance relative to that offered during the tsunami - but I’m not clear how you think this was played out in the policy choices.)</p>
<p>What do you suggest as the policy alternative? (I listed 7 options.)</p>
<p>Borders are man-made and often not respected. Factions have often led raids into other countries and fled back across the border seeking safety in their own countries. We saw it during the Vietnam War. Heck, Mexican revolutionaries crossed the Rio Grande and dealt a lot of misery to ranchers in South Texas. It has always happened.</p>
<p>There is evidence that Al Qaeda is entrenched along both sides of the Afghanistan/Pakistan border. I think it is unrealistic to think that American and coalition troops and innocent Afghan civilians would or should continue to die at the hands of suicide bombers and Al Qaeda troops because they crossed a man-made line "nto a "safe zone. The next attack on American soil could originate from terrorists residing in the area of the latest attack.</p>
<p>I am not a “W” fan. Have never voted for a Bush. I think we got side tracked in Iraq. I also think we still have a very real war on terrorism left to fight. Many people on both sides of this struggle have died since 9-11, and innocents in America have paid a very dear price for sure.</p>
<p>CGM, there is a big difference between the US and the tribal areas of Pakistan. In the US, it is possible to send the police car and round up the terrorists in a lawful manner. That is not possible in the tribal areas of Pakistan where the alternatives that Mini laid out are the only ones. Certainly you understand the difference.</p>
<p>I just flew in from Chicago about three hours ago (and boy, is my broom tired.) I found the article linked below within about 30 seconds after turning my computer on (this was a family trip, computer-free weekend–visiting NU and UChicago. More on that later.) This isn’t hard, folks. You’ve got to take a good, hard look at what you’re using for information sources. There’s a propaganda war being waged–and you’re losing!</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5163[/url]”>http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5163</a>
The increasingly hilarious NYT has now corrected the caption which apparently prompted CGM’s latest outburst–
“Ditchwater dumb”…I like that phrase.
</code></pre>
<p>we made a mistake, no one can be perfect.</p>
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I take it you’re from the NYT or the AP?</p>
<p>BOOM</p>
<p>headshot</p>
<p>Driver, hope your broom recovers!</p>
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<p>Hell of a mistake then…</p>