Immigration

<p>I’m sure many of you have seen these statements by President Teddy Roosevelt as it was circulated via email not too long ago.</p>

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<p>I was just wondering about everyone’s views on immigration these days. Do you all think that we should have one common language as TR suggests? What do you think about all the hyphenating we see (i.e. Asian-American, African-American)? </p>

<p>And…
Given that illegal immigration is such a big problem, and surely will be an issue of debate during the presidential election, what do you think should be done to address the problem? What should happen to the millions of illegals already here? (Estimates range from 7 million to 20 million).</p>

<p>I firmly believe we must get the borders secured, but what then? Do we send all the illegals back to Mexico (or wherever)? There must be programs in place to ensure that workers are properly documented, but I’m sure that will only partially solve the problem. Since this forum draws users from all around the country, I’m interested to hear everyone’s views. Thanks.</p>

<p>“Do you all think that we should have one common language?”</p>

<p>Italian, or Ojibwe.</p>

<p>lol mini! Yeah, I think we should all learn Italian - America would be a much more romantic place to live! :)</p>

<p>Then we’d have another baby boom!</p>

<p>I vote for esperanto</p>

<p>It may not be politically correct to say so, but I do think we should have an official language. Having lived in a place where I don’t speak the language, I am aware of how much I missed because I couldn’t communicate.</p>

<p>That said, I don’t have any problem with offering translations for things, either. Especially for things necessary to set up life. Life would have been simpler if I could have had my rental docs in English, for example. I’m grateful that my driver’s exam written test was available in English (for a mere 30 Euros extra), but had to deal with driving instructors who didn’t speak English - or even high German, but only Bayrisch. A friend of mine was a court translator (German/English - she was a Brit married to a German) - From the stories she tells, I know that the folks she worked with did not always get the best results, simply because they didn’t always understand.</p>

<p>My D was put into a school (mandatory education; homeschooling not allowed) where she didn’t speak the language, and was forced to learn it. How much more quickly she adapted than I did, because she could interact with people more quickly and more accurately.</p>

<p>So much of the stress and strife I experienced had to do with communication problems and misunderstandings. If we make it a priority that everyone speak the same language, then I think interactions and relations improve. If it’s “expected” that everyone learn English, then we can start putting our efforts toward teaching it, rather than toward accommodating those who don’t.</p>

<p>I’m not liking seeing spanish on the packaging in the supermarket and on coupons. And do we really need to have Enter and Exit signs in spanish also.</p>

<p>Yes, I think everyone living here should learn english.</p>

<p>One problem I see is that immigrants speak to the children (who are often born here in the USA) in their native language from birth to school age. These kids are not growing up bilingual from birth, they are having to learn English as a second language in school (at my expense).</p>

<p>And if I have to hear press 1 for english, 2 for spanish…</p>

<p>and printing all the government forms in several languages is costly.</p>

<p>Maybe we can bring Ellis Island back to life. The immigrants of my grandparents generation (after 1900 before WWI) WANTED to learn english. The fact that they sounded like they had just gotten off the boat 60+ years later was kinda funny, but they learned ENGLISH without being told to.</p>

<p>Excellent points binx. I hadn’t correlated my experiences living overseas to immigrants currently living in the U.S. We learned Italian because we WANTED to (of course that is the predominant language in Italy) and there weren’t translations provided very much unless you were in an international high-traffic area like an airport.</p>

<p>Learning the language made all the difference in the world as far as assimilation. It really is essential, but since we seem to accomodate other languages so much here in the U.S., I don’t think it’s become as much of a priority among our immigrants.<br>
That being said (I don’t like that expression, but it fits here!), I don’t think employers should be punished for requiring employees to speak English should they deem it a qualification for employment. Haven’t there been some cases involving this issue recently?</p>

<p>As an American citizen who lived for 9 years in officially bilingual Canada, I thought it was an expensive policy to implement. It was necessitated from the time of their Founding Fathers to make French bilingual (and BTW install the protection of Catholicism in Quebec) to avoid secession. Since the French and English were co-founders from the time of that country’s inception, it is fair that both languages be carried forward. Without that agreement, there might have been secession or civil war from Quebec.</p>

<p>As a result, there are expensive legal requirements such as the right to have your court case heard in either language; the requirement to publish every law in both languages; doubling up of school offerings across the country.</p>

<p>There is an advantage of intra-population communication, but the insistence is that the “second language” learned in school is that of the “other” rather than a choice of all languages from around the globe. Since the quiet one-third of Canadian’s population is now neither French nor English, new immigrants from 60 other language groups must choose to immerse their kids in either English or French, with important economic implications for their kids’ futures. Which language is the more universal globally? English. Which way must all new (Chinese, Somali, Pakistani, etc) immigrants who land in Quebec learn? French. Very different futures for their kids. In our American excitement to learn Spanish, let’s not forget how many other foreign languages are flowing into this country, but none such a great majority as Spanish.</p>

<p>Now back in the U.S., I would rather see a strong emphasis on English Second Language for all foreign speakers, modelled after Israel’s highly successful Hebrew Ulpan program that settled in millions of immigrant families. It’s a hands-on, experiential, family-friendly appraoch that gets people speaking another language and supporting each other as a family learning together. Instead of spending years as a marginal speaker, Israelis see new immigrants from around the globe learning the language in an intensive program for months (not years) to get them launched in the new country. We should learn from them.</p>

<p>North American ESL programs can’t compare! I taught ESL in Canada and witnessed it in U.S. classrooms where I taught an early grade level. We draaaaaag out foreign language learning for years by pulling kids out for 45 minutes a day, when they’d be better served with a front-loaded immersion into English as an investment in their (and our) future. As well, even after street-language fluency is gained by children in English ESL programs, their academic skills lag behind by years but they are dropped from the programs when they can speak/talk (and not yet read/write) in the school setting. As a result, it’s hard for years to keep up with textbooks without any further support. We drop them too soon, in terms of academic support, from ESL classes. Research shows this gap lasts for another 4 years before it’s closed, but that’s a long time for a young school child to be behind in regular classes. </p>

<p>As well, young English speakers in Canada become bilingual “enough” to apply to all governmnet and most private sector jobs that require bilingualism. Bilingualism always means French there. Is that necessarily the best language to learn? Maybe, maybe not. For a global future, is Spanish necessarily the best language for all of us (sad) unilinguals to learn next? Maybe (if Spanish immigrant families remain unschooled in English indefinitely…) or maybe not.</p>

<p>In the U.S., I would prefer to see one official language, English, coupled with Ulpan-style EFFICIENT, family-friendly programs to teach new immigrants from all languages enough English to get launched in this country. Then, if the population remains large locally that speaks Spanish, encourage (don’t require it) as a second-language choice throughout public schooling. </p>

<p>Do not start establishing “English” schools and “Spanish” schools, as the Canadians have. It also was divisive in terms of neighborhoods. On the block we lived (in Ottawa), four families sent same-age kids to four different schools: English (with “core French” 45 minutes daily); French Immersion (for
Anglophones – English speaking families who wanted their kids to learn French from a young age so only French was spoken there starting in Kindergarten); Catholic school (publicly funded) in English; Catholic school (publicly funded) in French. And no, there weren’t any publicly funded Protestant or Jewish schools, just Catholic. Non-Catholic families paid school tax (could designate to which of the 4 systems the tax could go) and also private school tuitiions.</p>

<p>Needless to say, none of the families or kids on the block knew each other. We watched FOUR half-empty schoolbusses come down the block each day.
Very divisive and lonely. </p>

<p>That was the national capitol and a model for “bilingual” education in Canada.</p>

<p>A current Canadian might update my information, and understand that I love Canada enough to take on dual citizenship for our whole family while there!
I thought that bilingualism made sense in an English/French co-founded country but it was very expensive to implement.</p>

<p>In truth, people spoke the “other” language in their workplace or to converse in the marketplace with an “other” but there was no carryover into the homes,
unless there was an intermarriage of a native French speaking parent with a native English speaking parent.</p>

<p>WHile the issue was of vital importance near Quebec (Ottawa’s right on the border of Ontario/Quebec), the same national policies were required across the nation, out to Saskatchewan and Winnipeg where fewer Francophones actually lived. Of course this kept the mobility option for Francophones to move anywhere in their own country, so that is important to consider.</p>

<p>By law, the food labels, street signs, store signs and so forth had to be in both languages. So, I did learn a LOT of new French vocabulary by reading everything published on the breakfast cereal boxes each morning. Every food item must be printed in both languages, so that’s a good daily reminder for those who enjoy reading food labels in two languages.</p>

<p>The one thing that might have been effective that they weren’t doing in the early l990’s when I was there was running French sub-titles under every moment of the TV news or films. </p>

<p>Watching films over and over is the age-old way 20th century immigrants learned English on these shores. At that time, I felt that our neighbor-to-the-north was missing the very easiest way to educate the public, through broadcast media with subtitles in both languages. Has that changed yet?</p>

<p>Anyway, it sounds good but is expensive to be a bilingual country. </p>

<p>My own two learned French as their foreign language, but the youngest who grew up more in America chose Spanish instead. He recognized it as a marketplace wisdom to know Spanish in America, just looking at population trends for the future. But that was by choice.</p>

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<p>Sue, I agree with most of what you’ve said, however, practice shows that this is not a huge problem, at least to the best of my knowledge. Do you know how quickly 5-year olds pick up new languages? It is amazing! No ESL classes are needed for elementary school kids. Even older kids can pick up a new language fast if a serious need arises. I know quite a few teenagers who came here with only rudimentary knowledge of the language and were thrown into the US schools with no ESL support. After a year or so of floundering, they were all fine. They might have skipped AP English and settled for regular English classes, but did stellar in their AP math and sciences courses. They preferred to speak English even at home, because English quickly became the language of their communication with their peers (after all, they only saw their parents for a few hours every night). Young brains is all it takes.
The problem arises when school districts start catering to the immigrant population: teaching classes in their native language, hiring native speakers to serve as school liasons, printing brochures in many different languages…</p>

<p>sue,
I can speak from personal experience. S was 6 when we moved to the States. Before that he spoke nothing but Russian. He picked up English in no time at all after starting school. At that time we spoke only Russian at home( my English was nonexistent) . Fast forward a number of years. S’s English is “native speaker” quality. His Russian is…not so good. Most of the time conversations are Russian(parents, not because we can’t do it in English but to keep S’s Russian alive in some way )-English(S because it takes him forever to find the right words and he has an American accent when he speaks).
Also I think it’s better to learn the language from native speakers rather than from parents whose English may not be very good.</p>

<p>Sue, I also agree with much of your post, except that it is healthy for parents to keep speaking in their native tongue to growing children, when the children attend school in the language of the new land! Without that tool, parents can’t develop critical thinking in their offspring, can’t keep on top of them emotionally, and stumble too much in front of their kids. </p>

<p>ESL teachers encourage parents to continue reading and discussing in the native tongue BECAUSE the children are making the instant cross-over from their parents’ spoken language into English in their own little heads. I saw great relief on faces of many Asian parents who thought they’d do their young kids a disservice to speak, or especially read anything non-English to them, but this is not what research demonstrates. Kids can handle both. Ah, young brains.</p>

<p>We don’t want to take away the parental depth that comes from reading and speaking to kids in the parents’ native tongue, all the while kids are learning English at all-English schools like sponges.</p>

<p>I do caution everyone that ESL kids who look and sound “fine” immediately or in short order are still not up to par academically without academic language support for reading and writing. I stand by my claim that we drop ESL kids too soon once they can play well in public. </p>

<p>It’s all dependent on their age when immigrating, too. Big brain changes occur around age 7 and 13. Children who arrive before age 7 have the possibility of complete bilingualism a if native in both tongues; and up to age l3 can acquire a new language unaccented. After age l3, it’s harder to lose the accent, but everything else can be learned with study and practice. (That’s research, not anecdotal).</p>

<p>I understand that kids pick up stuff quickly, but if they are immersed by only the native tongue at home (by parents who don’t speak ANY english) and walk into school to hear english for the first time, that certainly must inhibit their learning for the first year or two at school</p>

<p>And parents that don’t speak english have a harder time dealing with teachers, etc. </p>

<p>hearing both languages at home from birth is completely different and that is not what is going on around here </p>

<p>I can’t imagine moving to another country as an adult and putting forth absolutely no effort into learning the native language. But yet many do because they are able to live/work/shop amongst a group like themselves.</p>

<p>Just saw a clip about the law that dictates any state receiving federal aid (which aren’t??) must provide driver’s tests in Spanish as well as English. Those opposed were saying that it leaves drivers out there who can’t understand road signs & sometimes cause accidents - one example was cited in which an entire family was killed because of similar circumstances. </p>

<p>Sounds like this law needs to be overturned. Besides the potential for accidents, it’s a slippery slope - in how many languages will states eventually have to make the tests??</p>

<p>Europe routinely has people of disparate languages driving on the roads in countries of other languages without much of a problem. Some of this is likely due to their heavier use of symbols rather than words on signs.</p>

<p>I just checked California and the driver’s hanbooks are available in -

  • English
  • Spanish
  • Armenian
  • Chinese
  • Punjabi
  • Korean
  • Russian
  • Tagalog
  • Vietnamese</p>

<p>It sure seems that there must be a fair cost associated with supporting all of these other languages and I wonder how they get enough people at the DMV offices to handle all of these languages. I assume that in some cases they don’t. What then happens when someone needs to interact with a DMV person (like a driving test or questions) when there’s no one who can understand them?</p>

<p>Really, we should have one official language. This country is a melting pot with immigrants from many countries and it seems that it’d be unfair to support, for example, Spanish, but not German or that clicking language used by the guy who found the coke bottle in ‘The Gods Must Be Crazy’.</p>

<p>“I can’t imagine moving to another country as an adult and putting forth absolutely no effort into learning the native language. But yet many do because they are able to live/work/shop amongst a group like themselves.”</p>

<p>My grandparents on my mother’s side came from “sometime Poland”, and spoke only Yiddish (with a little Polish, Russian, and Slavic thrown in on occasion). My grandfather only needed Yiddish at work - he was employed in the “needles trade” and he read a Yiddish newspaper his entire life, played pinochle with only Yiddish-speaking friends; went to resort hotels in New York State where the predominant language was Yiddish, and listened to Yiddish radio stations, went to Yiddish plays and movies. My grandmother spoke “English” to purchase groceries. Or she thought she was speaking English. 50 years later, my wife still couldn’t make out what she was saying. She did have a hankering after Lawrence Welk though (even if he did speak only “Canadian”).</p>

<p>All the kids learned English in school, despite being in classes where 90% of the kids spoke only Yiddish at home. It wasn’t a big deal.</p>

<p>I have Italian, Russian, Puerto Rican, Vietnamese, and, yes, Mexican friends with exactly the same experience. This just isn’t such a big deal.</p>

<p>But if we need to speak the language of the original European settlers in the U.S., I guess we should all be learning Spanish.</p>

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<p>No. As any economist will tell you, they’re great for the economy.</p>

<p>We should make it much easier for immigrants to enter the country legally so they don’t have to do it illegally. </p>

<p>I have no problem with private businesses using any language they want, but government and legal affairs should be conducted solely in English, and English-appropriation programs should be available.</p>

<p>Sueinphilly - trust me, I tried. I went to classes, and studied on my own as well. There were few Americans where we lived. But there were also few people who had ever lived abroad, and they were very impatient with me when I attempted to speak. I’ve had more people that I can count just shake their heads and walk quickly away, even when I know I was speaking understandable German - just afraid of the immigrant, or not wanting to struggle to understand. Taught me so much. The hardest part of learning was having no place to practice, because people weren’t real welcoming to foreigners.</p>

<p>One of my D’s teacher recommendations for college did complain that he felt that any remaining difficulties she may have had with the language were due to the fact that she spoke English with her family. Oh well.</p>

<p>bz2010 - I’m glad I was allowed to take my written driver’s test in English rather than German. There were several other languages available as well. The test had German signs in it, and I had to show that I knew what they meant. As I said above, I did have to pay extra for the translation, which is normal in Germany - If you need a court translator, or whatever, expect to pay for it. The law there doesn’t guarantee free translation.</p>

<p>ucsd-dad,</p>

<p>The California DMV, like airports, has translators who work over the phone. You know those questions they ask at the airport “did you pack your suitcase yourself? did anyone give you anything to put in your luggage”? If someone doesn’t understand English, the agent connects translators on duty. It’s a service provided by, I believe, AT&T.</p>

<p>Regarding the huge numbers of illegal immigrants, IMO we need to -

  • secure the borders. This is easier said than done.
  • hold employers accountable for knowingly hiring illegals and provide tools to the employer so they can check.
  • have a reasonable guest worker program in place that allows aliens to legally work some jobs in this country within reason. This should include not only higher end technical jobs, but also lower end migrant and other jobs. The numbers should probably be higher than they now are but not to the extent that they completely take over jobs Americans are willing and able to perform (ex: construction).
  • require any illegals already present to apply for legal status or be returned. Seeing as they already decided to break our laws to get here, I think their names should go to the bottom of the list within their country. I don’t think preference should be given to someone who happened to get away with breaking our laws over their fellow countrymen who pursue the legal path. Of course, the illegals wouldn’t all be instantly caught and sent back, but I think granting amnesty will only exacerbate an already huge problem.</p>

<p>To me, this is such a no-brainer, and is centered around factors of practicality, economics, & environment. At what point do we cease allowing the physical location of the U.S. to be The Solution for the globe? When do we stop throwing up our hands & allowing ourselves to be the infinite rescuers – not to mention the enablers of corrupt foreign governments & desperate economies? Anyone noticed that land is not elastic? (Am I the only one?) Where are the innovators more interested in exporting practical expertise to overseas locations & encouraging the initiatives therein?</p>