Immigration

Parent Cafe
41

<p>I asked you for proof and you did not provide it. If you have no interest in backing up your preferences, then you might as well have said “liking blue is good; liking any other color is unethical”.</p>

<p>Again, where is your proof? Where is the logic and empiricism that makes you’re assertions valid? Specifically, I asked about the validity of sovereignty.</p>

<p>Oh, and calling something invalid is not insulting. I do not know where you got that idea from. Valid means something can be proven logically consistent and empirically accurate. You have failed to provide either of these which is why I call your assertions “invalid”.</p>

<p>EDIT: I want to point out that you said that you “believe” in sovereignty. I believe the color blue is great. That does not make it so.</p>

42

<p>Many of you are so Xenophobic!
I am sure none of your ancestors immigrated to this country, right?
What are you guys: Navajos? Sioux? Cherokees?</p>

43

<p>"I asked you for proof and you did not provide it. If you have no interest in backing up your preferences, then you might as well have said “liking blue is good; liking any other color is unethical”.</p>

<p>Morality and beliefs are PERSONAL things. I backed up my “preferences” by making clear how closely I work with illegal immigrants and have done for over 20 years. That gives me license to have an opinion. And you are still discourteous. I would like you to support YOUR arguments which are, frankly, silly and childish.</p>

44

<p>“are you guys: Navajos? Sioux? Cherokees?”</p>

<p>They’re immigrants, too. The thing you don’t get is that many Mexican immigrants want to be home in their own courtries, with their own language, culture and families. Why do you begrudge them that? So you can have cheap labor?</p>

45

<p>You are true that morality and beliefs are personal things. When those violate the ethical rights of another person, that comes into the realm of ethics. You are suggesting using force on non-violent people, so your “preferences” cannot be applied to anybody but yourself.</p>

<p>Which arguments would you like me to support in particular? I believe I have already done so. Please be specific.</p>

46

<p>" You are suggesting using force on non-violent people, "</p>

<p>Did I? where did you imagine that? </p>

<p>(You clearly don’t know my posting history and are assuming something that isn’t there. I am a vocal opponent of mass deportation.)</p>

<p>By the way, you have supported nothing with facts. You have offered inconsistent opinions based on your own personal morality.l Which is fine, and to which you are welcome. But no facts from you.</p>

<p>Your comment about vaccination having nothing to do with morality was laughable. Your comment minimizing the importance of background checks for immigrants was similar.</p>

47

<p>Aren’t you in favor of certain restrictions on immigration? That is using force (relocation) on non-violent people (immigrants). How is coming to the US an act of violence? It’s not.</p>

48

<p>"Aren’t you in favor of certain restrictions on immigration? "</p>

<p>What an utterly silly, frivolous argument. And as far as violence, well, it depends on who’s coming doesn’t it? If it’s gang members, immigration IS an act of violence. But you don’t want to know that do you?</p>

<p>I ask you as well: why do you begrudge them their homes, families and cultures? Why do you feel the need to exploit the most vulnerable? What do you do to help? I have spent thousands of hours over decades helping illegal immigrants learn to read and write English. What about you?</p>

49

<p>“What an utterly silly, frivolous argument. And as far as violence, well, it depends on who’s coming doesn’t it? If it’s gang members, immigration IS an act of violence. But you don’t want to know that do you?”</p>

<p>You changed the subject. Immigrating to somewhere is not the same as committing violent gang crimes. You and I both know that most illegal immigrants are decent people and the laws are not designed at keeping out gang members.</p>

<p>Again: migration is not an act of violence. Doing violent gang activities is. Keeping gang members out of the US is still unethical since you are using violence but not for stopping violence. If merely existing as a gang member is an act of violence, then that gives us all a right to attack (in public) gang members who have served in prison.</p>

<p>How do I begrudge their homes, families, and cultures? None of these (except for a home) are chosen things, so they are certainly nothing for anybody to be proud of. If they were, then I guess tall people should laugh at short people. How is denying them the chance at another life begrudging any of these? Protectionism (e.g. restricted immigration) hurts citizens of developing countries.</p>

<p>“What do you do to help? I have spent thousands of hours over decades helping illegal immigrants learn to read and write English. What about you?”</p>

<p>Does that mean that if I don’t help immigrants, then I must be unethical? You can’t force people to do things (e.g. community service) and be non-violent. The two things are mutually exclusive, which is why I am pointing out the inconsistency of your values.</p>

50

<p>Married to an immigrant (US citizen when we met) who learned three languages (and alphabets), none of them Spanish, growing up I strongly favor English as an official language- we need a common language for all residents. There are far too many languages and limited budgets to be fair to all the different language speakers by accomodating their home country languages. I find it scary that someone can be allowed to drive but can’t read English signage on the roads. Spanish speakers here benefit by learning English as it is the current global language.</p>

<p>I also dislike the discrimination against overseas potential immigrants from many nonEuropean countries. I feel sorry for those who wait their turn legally while so many illegals jump the line and don’t bother with the hurdles legal immigrants have to jump (the process is no fun, especially locating paperwork from overseas). There are many, many people all over the world who live in poverty and could benefit from living here. A major problem is that Mexico has no incentive thus far to improve the situation for its citizens so they can earn a living at home. The Canadian situation is interesting- we noticed the adherence to the biligual rules in Ontario but English wasn’t always used in Quebec… I wonder how helpful many Americans would be if the illegals weren’t typically Christians like they are?</p>

51

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<p>Exactly! Ditto for many legal immigrants, zoosermom. I used to work with a number of Eastern European “brain drain” scientists who came here legally on H1 visas and had their status adjusted later, and the only thing that made them look west was the lack of funding for science in their native countries after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Instead of trying to make ends meet as laborers in their own countries, they were accepted here, and many helped generate American jobs by starting their own companies.</p>

52

<p>@wis75</p>

<p>Having a certain atmosphere near you is not a right. If businesses want to cater to certain ethnic groups, that is none of your business.</p>

<p>It is ridiculously easy to drive on the roads without English.</p>

<p>Why can’t we just let all immigrants in?</p>

53

<p>“You changed the subject. Immigrating to somewhere is not the same as committing violent gang crimes. You and I both know that most illegal immigrants are decent people and the laws are not designed at keeping out gang members.”</p>

<p>I absolutely didn’t change the subject. You ducked an unpleasant truth.</p>

<p>As a matter of principle, if you hold the views you claim to espouse, then I question your morality in doing nothing to promote them.</p>

<p>Obviously you do begrudge illegal immigrants the best life possible. Do you think they want to live the lives they do, separated from their families and culture? Given a choice, many would build lives at home, but people like you either exploit their desperation or turn a blind eye when others do. I find that shameful. It seems to disturb you when the contradictions between your words and actions are pointed out.</p>

<p>And again, I tell you, don’t presume to include me in “you and I both know” because you have no idea what I do or don’t know and it’s not clear to me that you know anything.</p>

<p>P.S. THe laws are designed to keep all unapproved folks out. It’s not the laws that are the problem, it’s the enforcement.</p>

54

<p>bunsen, I’ve posted about this before (sorry for the repeat!), but my boss is from Pakistan and desperately wants to go home. He recently became a citizen and he was grateful and humble, but deeply saddened that he couldn’t make a safe and prosperous life for his family in his own country. Same with a brand new friend from Romania. Don’t get me wrong, they’re good citizens and happy to be here, they just see the other side of it. Unskilled and uneducated people have a much harder time and it’s heartbreaking if you really think about it. Their culture is thousands of years old, but they leave it to come here, their families and communities are elsewhere and as a practical matter they CAN’T make a life at home. I don’t see anything good or noble about that, I really don’t.</p>

55

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<p>about leaving unfavorable economic conditions in one’s home country to work menial, yet better-paying labor so that your kids have a shot at growing up in the most prosperous nation on earth? i think i’m misinterpreting…</p>

56

<p>“I absolutely didn’t change the subject. You ducked an unpleasant truth.”</p>

<p>I already explained how you ducked the truth: how your logic allows for me to attack an ex-convict. That act is not intended to stop violence.</p>

<p>“s a matter of principle, if you hold the views you claim to espouse, then I question your morality in doing nothing to promote them.”</p>

<p>I don’t voluntarily force non-violent people to do anything.</p>

<p>“Obviously you do begrudge illegal immigrants the best life possible. Do you think they want to live the lives they do, separated from their families and culture? Given a choice, many would build lives at home, but people like you either exploit their desperation or turn a blind eye when others do. I find that shameful. It seems to disturb you when the contradictions between your words and actions are pointed out.”</p>

<p>The way you word it, I begrudge all people the best life possible. Culture, prosperity, and family are not rights. Associating with people without force is a right but that does not mean you are entitled to coerce non-violent people to achieve those means.</p>

<p>Furthermore, you have failed to proven how immigration restrictions would help people who stay in their native countries. Obviously, the immigrants value economic prosperity to cultural surroundings. Otherwise, they would not have left.</p>

<p>“And again, I tell you, don’t presume to include me in “you and I both know” because you have no idea what I do or don’t know and it’s not clear to me that you know anything.”</p>

<p>I sue that statement when I see people not applying principles consistently. Take it as a figure of speech.</p>

<p>“THe laws are designed to keep all unapproved folks out. It’s not the laws that are the problem, it’s the enforcement.”</p>

<p>So who defines unapproved? When you define unapproved as anybody who is poor like the US does in lots of cases, the law is the problem.</p>

57

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<p>If you can’t figure out the answer to that one, I’m sure no one here can explain it to your satisfaction. You are being deliberately obtuse, and I’m sure most people can see that. Therefore, it would be an exercise most foolish to further engage you in the topic at hand. I certainly don’t plan to. Others may continue to try, but I suspect that even they will choose to ignore your “arguments” sooner rather than later.</p>

58

<p>“I sue that statement when I see people not applying principles consistently. Take it as a figure of speech.”</p>

<p>It is not a figure of speech. It is an indication of poor manners.</p>

<p>“The way you word it, I begrudge all people the best life possible.”</p>

<p>Clearly you do.</p>

<p>“Culture, prosperity, and family are not rights”</p>

<p>We call those “Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” and we think they ARE rights.</p>

59

<p>“about leaving unfavorable economic conditions in one’s home country to work menial, yet better-paying labor so that your kids have a shot at growing up in the most prosperous nation on earth?”</p>

<p>About HAVING to. About not having favorable conditions in the land of your birth, language and family so that your children can share your culture and heritage. About a government not assisting its people in having even a basic standard of living. I don’t find that noble at all.</p>

60

<p>“It is not a figure of speech. It is an indication of poor manners.”</p>

<p>No it is not. For some reason, you take offense when I call your preferences as invalid to apply to other people. In this case, I am calling attention to inconsistencies in your principles. If you feel that I am wrong, then please correct me.</p>

<p>“Clearly you do.”</p>

<p>You do as well. You have a computer which you could have not bought and donated the money to somebody else.</p>

<p>“We call those “Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” and we think they ARE rights.”</p>

<p>Life is a right? So suicide is unethical?</p>

<p>Liberty is merely the absence of coercion and that is a right.</p>

<p>The pursuit of happiness in terms of a good job is not a right. This “right” and liberty are mutually exclusive. You can’t be for liberty and pursuit of happiness (e.g. ensuring economic prosperity and cultural experiences).</p>