<p>I don’t think they’re really victimizing themselves. People are going to feel how they feel. Actually I’m kind of surprised at how graciously they (and their families) have handled this situation. Really quite graciously I think. In some other sports communities with a different cultural makeup, if Imus had something about their collegiate athletes like this, the minute the news came back people would have been on the phone with lawyers. But then again, maybe it’s telling that he chose to say what he did about who he did. He obviously thought he could get away with it (either that or he orchestrated self destruction which would be really bizarre, but possible). </p>
<p>And I think that people have missed a lot of points in all of this. It’s not about hip hop and rap. He wasn’t fired because of ethics, or because American has any (we clearly don’t). They don’t care about ethics. They care about money. He was a liability. The truth is, I can say a lot of things if I want and people might think I’m kind of a jerk (i.e. rap music) but if I bring a specific individual into it and then say some of the same things, it becomes tantamount to slander. That becomes a totally different situation. After he said this, people would have always been waiting, watching him. That’s not a liability these media organizations can take on. Someone can (and probably would) sue them for these things. Why wouldn’t they fire him? They’d basically be crazy not to. I think they’d totally kill a certain demographic by maintaining association with him, not to mention they’d be taking on a huge liability. And for what? The glorious success that his amazing art brings them? Please. </p>
<p>Basically, he took a risk and it backfired. You can’t really make unfounded statements about individuals and expect no consequences. Rap is generalized and not directed at certain people, it isn’t really exactly the same, although I don’t support graphic rap either. However I think it’s strange that people only bring up rap when there’s a lot of other facets of pop culture reinforcing the same images. It might not be as in your face, but ultimately, it’s still there. I think rap gets a lot of attention because it allows people to throw up their hands and say they don’t have a part in this, that any stereotypes are being reinforced by the “stereotypees” themselves. Maybe. But I see it as another commentary on race relations - it’s always easy to attack something that you don’t view yourself as part of, and ignore the damage done by what you are part of.</p>
<h2>“But I see it as another commentary on race relations - it’s always easy to attack something that you don’t view yourself as part of, and ignore the damage done by what you are part of.”</h2>
<p>Probably the truest thing said to date. Personally, I don’t think we expect progress until we are willing to put ourselves in another’s shoes. And that is what I think we have failed at…and miserably. It is easy to say ‘get over it’, chin up and don’t be a victim…when you aren’t the person who has to do it. And saying these things, even with only the very best of intentions, serves to invalidate what are legitimate grievances and also serves to mitigate the responsibility of people like Don Imus.</p>
<p>The Rutgers team and coach have a right to be offended for as long as they feel offended. I have never been made the butt of such a cruel and public joke, so I am certainly not going to stand up and tell them when it’s time to move on.</p>
In fact, I HAVE been in a similar situation where some others and I took a <em>VERY</em> public and prolonged beating locally by television stations, radio stations, and the school administration for speaking out against an extremely inappropriate yearbook. The commentary on the newspaper website went on for much longer than it should have. The press, being typically liberal, could simply not understand why those of us who thought it disrespectful for a yearbook to refer to intelligent, high functioning kids as “nerds” only worthy of “cheating from” was offensive. Nevertheless, despite the fact that the vocal public opinion was against me, I moved on. I felt I had stated my case and that I’d made my point in the appropriate venues. </p>
<p>You are right about one thing, ld…my intentions ARE good, and I think that I have the Rutgers’ basketball team’s best interests in mind FAR more than Sharpton et al do. Unquestionably. </p>
<p>Not every feeling we hold has to be aired publicy and extensively. As a matter of fact, I have vented here about my son’s h.s. experiences with antiSemitism precisely because it was NOT in his best interests to belabor the discussion with him or to lead him to believe that <em>I</em> felt he was a victim. I didn’t…and HE didn’t…feel like he was one. </p>
<p>It’s not that neither of us had feelings about it. It’s just that the dwelling on those feelings would have been unproductive, IMHO. </p>
<p>Those of us who choose not to behave as victims still HAVE feelings. But we also have a measure of resilience and dignity that dictate that we let the hurt go. If you don’t do that, you risk wallowing in negativity and bitterness, something which can only have negative consequences down the line.</p>
<p>All true. I just don’t really see them as wallowing in victimhood (this is probably not a word, but you know). I don’t really know. Like I said, I see them as actually taking it quite graciously. I would say I see the Imus side as playing the victim more in this situation. </p>
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<p>I imagine somewhere in their minds they also think they have the team and everyone’s best interests at mind here. We’re all motivated to be right. Sharpton of course has political interests on the line but I don’t necessarily see him as self serving. If he is trying to be, then he’s going about it the wrong way. He’s had about the least amount of success in the big political arena that’s possible. Now I’m not saying I think he’s always right - I’m just saying I don’t think he necessarily has sinister intentions here. His background is very different than mine, and I imagine yours. As a black man of his age, I imagine that for years and years he’s been conditioned to see things a certain way. And so it’s easy for all of us, and even those of his same race that are younger, to kind of mock where he’s coming from or say he’s just being self serving, but I think deep down he would view his role as many “revolutionaries” do, and that’s to carry the revolution to the next step, and to keep doing that until they reach the end goal. I would say racism is still alive in America, so I would imagine that Sharpton also feels that his goals have not been accomplished. But I think he would truly feel he is doing what’s best for people he thinks he has to advocate for.</p>
I’m sure you’re right here, Princedog. I acknowledged this earlier when I said that there are many of us who hold different views on the best way to handle this set of events. </p>
<p>Please realize, though, that I have a very different view of Sharpton et al than you do. I watched with horror as he stood up and essentially convicted three young men of rape without the benefit of due process. If he was looking for “justice,” as he claimed to be, then he failed miserably. It is MY opinion, if perhaps my opinion solely, that Shapton and his buddies are promoting an agenda to the exclusion of truth, justice and honor. I have zero respect for this man, and this was true long before the Duke LAX events. Those just solidified my views. I’m tired of hearing the word “justice” uttered from a man who perpetuates anything but if it suits his political agenda.</p>
<p>I am NOT accusing the Rutgers girls of wallowing in victimhood. In fact, I don’t feel that way at all. What I DO feel is that they (and this event) are being exploited by some twisted people. It is the exploitation at their expense that offends me. </p>
<p>The movie “Citizen Ruth” is a hard-hitting satire of a young, ignorant, unwed pregnant girl who is exploited by self-serving people on BOTH sides of the choice argument. It is worth a watch if you haven’t seen it. It is truly hilarious, in a pathetically true sort of way. These girls are being made into Ruth, and there was no reason for it. It does not serve them well.</p>
<p>B - I don’t necessarily disagree with you about Sharpton or Jackson and their motives. But I also don’t know enough about them personally to say they only hold self-serving motives. These are things found only in the heart.</p>
<p>That doesn’t matter though because I just don’t know that I affiliate the Rutgers girls or coach with them as much as you. I see Sharpton’s and Jackson’s involvement in this situation as something that has occurred at the invitation of the press, mainly the cable news outlets, not the Rutgers team. And of course, these outlets are going to seek out individuals who create the most visceral reaction and controversy because it directly translates into ratings. </p>
<p>I saw an interview on MSNBC with the black minister who did attend the Imus/Rutgers meeting. I’m sorry I don’t remember his name but he seemed to be a low profile, soft-spoken man. He was asked about his views on forgiveness and Christianity and specifically about Sharpton’s declaration that he did NOT forgive Don Imus. What this minister said was ‘where this no forgiveness, there is no Christianity’. THIS is the person the Rutgers team chose to counsel them and provide them spiritual support, not Sharpton or Jackson. I can’t help but believe, behind closed doors, this minister WAS encouraging the girls to forgive and not let this ruin their lives. Unfortunately, I’ve only seen this man interviewed once and it was aired in off, non-primetime, hours; which is a shame…and predictable…sigh.</p>
<p>Bottom line - imho, the Rutgers team has a right to their feelings and no one has the right to tell them when and how to have those feelings; and I don’t for a minute presume because the talking heads are blathering on a cable news program, it has anything to do with how the Rutgers team will choose to handle this situation.</p>
See, ld, this is where I have the issue. That the above rhetoric is even bandied about regarding this event. “Ruin their lives”??? I don’t understand. For the record, neither my son nor I have “forgiven” the people whose repeated verbal attacks over four years bespoke true beliefs and not a “misstep,” but if anything, my son made certain that their actions spurred him on to greater things, though it certainly would have been much easier for him to quit trying and blame a hostile and unwelcoming h.s. environment.</p>
<p>Oh, I agree to some extent. I don’t necessarily myself view all of Sharpton’s actions as truthful or just or the best path, or whatever you want to call it. But I’m not sure that he pursues them conciously in order to be self serving. Like I said, I think there are much better ways he could gain political success. But I think he would view that as selling out. And that’s where he believes that all of his actions are to carry the civil rights movement to the next, continuous step. He’s basically a throwback to a time that I don’t think we fully understand the gravity of. You cite the Duke lacrosse case. And Sharpton, in a different time, probably saw rape cases that were never brought to light, nothing, because of the oppression at the time. You know, that was a common thing, what he thought had happened this past year. So now, he’s continually evaluating an event like the Duke lacrosse case in terms of that and he just doesn’t see that it couldn’t have happened that way. Obviously it was unjustified in this case as it brought harm to individuals. </p>
<p>So at the same time, while I don’t myself have the experience to bring myself to exactly see things the way he does, and while I do feel he has unfairly harmed individuals in some cases, I’m torn on whether I see Sharpton and Jackson, etc as harmful to our society as a whole. I just don’t know. I think we face a real problem of people, especially people about my age, denying that racism exists. And I think that’s caused racism in some ways to become more insidious. Everything is a joke, or doesn’t exist at all. I think in some ways we went one step forward and two steps backward - I would have to say that I feel something has slipped recently. I see people entirely unwilling to call something so obviously racism, racially motivated. And then it really begs the question, what’s going on when it isn’t obvious? Somewhere along the way some people convinced themselves of (what I call) a myth of “political correctness”, and they refuse to view anything outside of that. Everything is always just people being too sensitive. Or, justifying what Imus said as just flaunting political correctness. But I think people are really reaching with this PC monster sometimes, and it’s allowing us to justify things that shouldn’t be acceptable.</p>
<h2>"For the record, neither my son nor I have “forgiven” the people whose repeated verbal attacks over four years bespoke true beliefs and not a “misstep,” </h2>
<p>Not meaning this disrespectfully in ANY way berurah…but this is something I don’t understand either. For me, forgiveness is at the core of any healing experience. </p>
<p>But my point is this…anyone who has ever been hurt, physically or emotionally, is entitled to process this hurt in their own way…without having it negatively labeled as ‘victim behavior’. Just because you see someone you don’t like commenting on the Imus/Rutgers situation, doesn’t mean they have the power to influence how the Rutgers women will handle the situation. It’s a wrong presumption.</p>
BINGO, Princedog. You have just articulated EXACTLY the kind of damage (and it IS <em>serious</em> damage) that is perpetuated by the likes of Sharpton and Jackson. See, when you “crisisize” EVERYTHING and paint EVERYTHING in a racial context, you diminish the TRUE and ABOMINABLE instances of racism that still DO exist in our culture. And then we all become desensitized…or overly sensitized and resentful, which is what, IMHO, has led to the PC backlash.</p>
<p>Here’s the big question: Does EVERYTHING that happens between a white person and a black person automatically thrust it into the realm of racism? I’m asking this in a serious and interested way. I mean, can a case of rape or other violence between a man and a woman who just <em>happen</em> to be black and white, EVER be just a case of RAPE or VIOLENCE and NOT a case of racism too? I myself don’t have the answer to this question, though I’d like to believe that at times, it can just be a case of whatever the crime is.</p>
<p>Now, that said, both the Rutgers events and the Duke events DID incorporate racism. We KNOW racism was at the root of the Imus event, and it was reported that some racist remarks took place in the Duke event, even though that has not been substantiated to my satisfaction.</p>
<p>As far as THIS:
I don’t particularly care that things were different “back then.” Sharpton needs to get with the program NOW if he wants to be a positive spokesman for racial issues. Now that he KNOWS that things did not come down as he thought they did in the Duke case, where is his sincere apology for his role in this sordid affair? If he is unwilling to see where he committed acts that perpetuated INJUSTICE, then he should not be respected or given the media attention he seeks. At that point, he becomes a toxic force, and yes, that is how I view him.</p>
<p>What of the people who still perpetuate the “victim” status of the Duke accuser?? These people are misguided and dangerous, and their message is one that will NOT help anyone, least of all the ones they claim are victims. </p>
I understand that. I use a different term for the type of “forgiveness” to which you refer. I cannot discuss this any further publicly as this is a subject that is too intimate and private for me to share.</p>
<p>“my intentions ARE good, and I think that I have the Rutgers’ basketball team’s best interests in mind FAR more than Sharpton et al do.”</p>
<p>I believe you do too, Berurah. Al Sharpton is a shark, feeding on other people’s pain and misfortune for his own ego gratification, and self-aggrandizement. And I blame the mainstream media for stampeding to his door (and Jesse J’s.) with microphones-in-hand every time something like this happens. They know without a doubt that these two can be depended upon to ramp up the rhetoric and make a bad situation even more volatile, provide the juiciest sound bites, and in general, augment the divide between races that already exists in America. In this way, the two of them are almost like a trained animal act, dependably performing whenever their handlers offer up a Skinnerian reward. It’s disgusting. And the powerful white media executives who are ultimately responsible for stoking the big machine (and don’t respect the Reverends Al and Jesse anymore than I do) sit in their penthouse offices, smoke their fat cigars, and then laugh all the way to the bank. To them, it’s all good.</p>
<h2>“And the powerful white media executives who are ultimately responsible for stoking the big machine (and don’t respect the Reverends Al and Jesse anymore than I do) sit in their penthouse offices, smoke their fat cigars, and then laugh all the way to the bank. To them, it’s all good.”</h2>
<p>And to a certain extent, those of us who turn on the tv and watch the circus and get so filled with emotion that we can’t tear ourselves away are part of the problem too. Those media execs LOVE it that we hate…</p>
SO true, ld. And THAT is why it is especially important that we try to retain our objectivity when we watch this stuff. And evaluate it logically. Despite the fact that I tend to be an exceedingly emotional person (no DUH! ), I am, on the flipside, extremely analytical. It’s easy to get caught up in the emotion of the moment and not see the bigger picture. For example, the picture that poetsheart described above.</p>
<p>I’m so cynical, I’ve always maintained the almighty $ and lust for power is a the bottom of most of our big problems. We have Jackson and Sharpton in our face because it makes people rich and powerful; we have objectionable content in music, film, tv because it makes people rich and powerful; Don Imus, Howard Stern and their ilk are on the air because it makes people rich and powerful; and we kick them OFF the air because it makes people rich and powerful…</p>
<p>Now if we could just all agree on something long enough to harness the power that lies in OUR part of the equation…</p>
<p>btw…off topic question for berurah. Have you heard any first hand accounts about how bad the weather was in the Triangle today? Couldn’t get ahold of ldgirl…circuit problems related to weather I suspect.</p>
<p>^^I actually haven’t heard either, ld. I just got an email from S, but he didn’t mention anything about the weather. He’s definitely one to downplay that sort of thing <em>lol</em>, even if I’m not. I was watching the news tonight, though, and FL and S.Carolina were mentioned specifically for damaging weather. No mention of NC, though, thank goodness!</p>
I myself don’t have the answer to this question, though I’d like to believe that at times, it can just be a case of whatever the crime is.</p>
), I am, on the flipside, extremely analytical. It’s easy to get caught up in the emotion of the moment and not see the bigger picture. For example, the picture that poetsheart described above.</p>