<p>With all of the talk about the high cost of a music education for a job future that is uncertain even in the best of times, let’s not lose sight of the fact that at least our kids are learning a trade. I was reminded of this the other day while listening to the parent of another high school senior tell me about how there kid picked Big Out Of State U for a degree in Political Science. Being one of our kid’s early look-ats I know exactly what that school is going to cost them and suddenly I found myself feeling … sensible, for sending my kid to a conservatory.</p>
<p>Much of the discussion revolves around debt. High tuition does not mean debt for everyone.If you can afford high tuition —good for you!</p>
<p>Nobody has a crystal ball and nobody knows what is going to happen to the financial markets or the college loan market. Many predict it will implode just as the housing market did.</p>
<p>I think that forcing a child to choose a school or a major based on future earning potential alone is ridiculous and will only set your child up for disappointment. So many of our kids are passionate about what they do and are aware that it is unlikely that they will ever be billionaires. But what price to do you put on happiness and enjoying what you do for a living. </p>
<p>The funny thing is that nobody would tell a kid not to go to medical school to become a family practitioner or pediatrician because they will have a lot of debt. But the reality is that primary care doctors are going to have tons of debt. Those who are interested in academia (even in the sciences) also face a pretty uncertain financial fate. As do lawyers right now who are graduating from law school and unable to get jobs. </p>
<p>The decision about where to go is personal and money is only one piece of a much more complicated piece of the puzzle. We had one child who could have attended a state school for almost no money. But that child needed something that that state school could not provide, but a small liberal arts school could. So although we were stretched for money and worried about debt we decided to send our child to the small liberal arts school. The benefit has been a child who in the right environment has blossomed academically and socially. I don’t think you can put a price on that happiness and certainly getting him to the point where he is now would have been much harder at the state school.</p>
<p>Even moderate tuition means some debt for almost everyone, and we will have a tolerable amount of it when all is said and done, but what I am saying is that at least we aren’t paying for a degree in Urban Anthropology or Medieval Art History. Our kids have a passion and talent for a definable profession that society values… sort of. </p>
<p>My father was happy when I decided against being an architect like him and went with music because it was a more stable profession, and have you seen what a degree in architecture costs these days? </p>
<p>I’m not brite-siding debt but at least formally trained musicians can teach privately on the side to help with their student loans while they gig out. Not a lot of call for private Filmmaking lessons.</p>
<p>Hey…watch what you say…I actually have my grad degree in Art History!! But it’s in Quattrocento Italian (those Medievalists are loosers 
)
Most of my comments are towards VP, where if you are not careful you can easily leave grad school with over $150,000 in debt. D was lucky to have a teacher as an undergrad who always reminded her that money IS important. It is something that needs to be taken into consideration at the start. Don’t get me wrong. It was D’s music that actually PAID for much of her education. It’s the very reason why she is debt free. And she is making a nice little living in a major market in music alone. BUT, she has dozens and dozens of extremely talented friends, some even Met Opera finalists, who are burdened with debt that keeps them from taking the sort of financial risks after graduation that one must take to actually pursue their art. The potential burden of debt must be discussed as part of the young musicians path. As an instrumentalist YMMV.</p>
<p>Music education majors at most schools we’ve talked to have a 100% job placement rate. Mainly becuase there are so few quailified and certified to fill the available public shool openings. It would still keep you “in the game” for performance opportunities, although not as much as a performance major. And it takes a certain type of person who can manage a classroom of Jr High or High schoolers.</p>
<p>But in general, music education majors attend a public university in the state where they plan on teaching. it is more the performance majors who want to attend the best conservatory they can get into, often a private one, hence the discussion on debt.</p>
<p>Well , leave it to me to pick what I thought was a safe example! Sorry. Actually I was thinking about a girl I used to date that had a similar grad degree. One of the things that attracted her to me was when I realized she couldn’t give me any grief about being in the music business, especially after I saw her monthly student loan statement. Yikes. </p>
<p>I would never suggest anyone go into the kind of debt you were describing. My kid knew exactly to the dollar how much we could spend and what the payments would be on her Fed low interest student loans would be once school was out if we couldn’t pay those off as well. We let her decide on whether to go with the lower priced ( but with great teacher) , university, with then money for summer programs etc, or the more expensive budget stretching ( but not breaking ) conservatory ( with a great teacher too ) and it looks like she is going with with the latter. She’s decided to withdraw from the summer camps she got accepted in for this year, will continue to borrow an instrument and is getting a summer job. We are so impressed by her focus that we can’t complain. </p>
<p>Plus , next year my car qualifies for “Antique Vehicle” license plates. Now if I can only get a little more money in the conservatory offer…</p>
<p>There is a major pitfall in discussing money on an arts or music forum. The minute you open that trap door, folks imagine that you are stomping on their kid’s dreams. But it’s the other way around. To really pursue a dream one needs to have their feet firmly on the ground and a clarity of vision that includes the realities of the market place. This is more true in the performing arts than any other pursuit. It’s a delicate balance and different for everyone. . As Stacjip said, it is a piece to a broader puzzle. That being said…money should not be ignored
This is from someone whose MM graduation gift to her D was an appointment with an accountant who specialized doing the taxes for classical vocalists. Best money ever spent.</p>
<p>woops…and it’s losers not loosers</p>
<p>I encouraged my S to attend a private liberal arts because I did for my first two years. I transferred to a state college to get my degree when the private school folded. The difference - love of learning, desire to learn at private small school. Get a good grade and get the class over with at state college.</p>
<p>Yes we will pay or have debt of $55k more because of the private college choice, but honestly with all the fed government problems and cutting research to state colleges, and state budget cuts, at the end of 5 years, the two schools may not be different in cost!</p>
<p>So I feel it is an investment in my S to learn about the world, be an educated adult who will be a better voter, be a better parent (if the time comes), and pursue the dream of music. Whether he’ll make a career in music, who can tell? There are new jobs being created. Software and games using music comes to mind.</p>
<p>Sure beats him working in the world of corporate jobs with layoffs and unemployment!</p>
<p>As DH says “You do the best you can with what you got”. Both he and I are graduates of a public university system and are in good jobs earning the same as our Ivy League colleagues. Our parents could never have afforded expensive schools (and we couldn’t have gotten in!) Our D is in a large public university where we are paying out of state tuition. She had a good option in-state. When she got the opportunity to attend this school, we thought about her education: the chance to study with a great teacher (actually two) who is a fine person and who has great contacts, the chance to work with a cohort of talented student musicians across multiple disciplines which would challenge her to stay on top of her game and give her contacts from all over the country and world, the array of non-music course offerings, the opportunities for “lateral” learning such as business and computers, the option of doing a dual-degree, the comfort of knowing that if music didn’t work out, she wouldn’t have to transfer, the multiple extra-curricular opportunities/clubs/organizations/internships/part-time jobs that would give her valuable skills to be employable and on and on. Plus the fact that being far away from home has really forced her to be much more self-reliant. </p>
<p>Truthfully, if she had stayed in state, in 20 years she would probably be in exactly the same situation. All of the grandparents think that we are out of our minds to spend so much money! On the CLARINET! They are probably right. But we just could not pass up the chance to give her this opportunity to reach her dream, with a healthy dose of reality thrown in, and so far we are very pleased. If we had had the means and had denied her the opportunity, I think we would forever feel guilty. But I agree with everyone above: everyone has to sort this out for themselves.</p>
<p>Now, about grad school…we’ll keep you posted on that one.</p>
<p>It so hard to know what to do. As jb1966 says, </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The same is true for architects, psychologists, and other professionals who invest years and a great deal of money into their professional training. I know so many adults in their 40s and 50s who did everything right-- worked hard, went to the best schools, built up terrific resumes, only to find themselves unemployed. I have a lot of anxiety about my arts-focused kids and about the $$$ we have sunk into their training. I like to think that, because they are heading, open-eyed, into a precarious economy and future, that they may be somewhat better prepared in terms of being nimble and adept at managing “multiple income streams” than their peers who are marching off to careers in law, architecture, psychology. I do have moments when I wish they’d all gone into nursing.</p>
<p>It becomes a slippery slope when you start ruling out careers because they are hard to make money at. The list is a ponderous one and includes most of the jobs that help the rest of humanity enjoy life. It’s funny that you chose nurse as an example because if I were to think of a “normal” job where people work long hours for usually inadequate pay, especially when you look at the schooling involved, it would be nursing. You couldn’t get nurses to do what they do unless they are driven by something else. You can add chefs and who knows how many more professions into that category.</p>
<p>People don’t want to pay for music, but they need it to survive. But then again people don’t want to pay their lawyers, doctors, accountants,plumbers, health care providers, etc. Maybe the only difference is leverage.</p>
<p>jb1966,
My daughter is in graduate school to become a Nurse Practitioner. I can’t tell you how many people respond to this by telling her that she is going into a lucrative position and will do well financially. I know it seems odd, but all the predictions point to a shortage of primary care practitioners and people willing to work with people on health maintenance and prevention. And Nurse Practitioners are expected to become the people who provide this service. When you think of low paying nursing jobs with long hours you are probably thinking of people who have associates degrees in nursing (which are being phased out and many hospitals will not hire them anymore). That is different from a nurse who has a bachelors of science and a masters or PhD or Doctorate in nursing. Those nurses will likely be in demand and therefore will probably earn a good living.</p>
<p>Yes, that kind of grad level education is a very good thing. Likewise, someone with a doctorate degree in say, music education is certainly going be better paid than someone without an advanced degree who is teaching at the grade school level. I was just saying that for what they have to put up with from hospital administrators, doctors and patients, the job requires them, on a regular basis, to go way beyond their job compensation either financially or emotionally. But this is a bit off topic, sorry.</p>
<p>jb1966, let me throw a wrench in your thinking. In this day and age, where public schools are fighting for funds and just trying to stay afloat, the schools DON’T want those with the highest education. Why? Because we are too expensive. Many school districts where I live offer huge retirement incentives so that they can get rid of the expensive teachers - those with many years of experience and master or doctorate degrees - and hire cheap, first-year teachers. It is really sad, but true in many areas of the country.</p>
<p>In fact, I’ve had a fear for several years now that if my DH ever moves us to another city, I won’t be able to find a job because I am too expensive. Of course, with the rate it’s going in my lovely state of Michigan, no school district will have to pay anyone extra for years of service and/or extra schooling. This is a really difficult time to be a teacher right now…not to depress anyone. :)</p>
<p>I only meant to say that generally speaking an advanced degree in any field usually presumes a higher pay scale. In teaching, like a lot of professions it leads to a higher pay scale perhaps to the point of unemployment, which I don’t think for a minute is funny, especially not in Michigan. </p>
<p>We live in a school district that pays top wages and somehow has low property taxes, but the buy-in is pretty steep. Nobody here is thinking of becoming a public school teacher and we all know that our town is an exception. Twenty miles south of here lies one of the biggest educational sinkholes in the U. S. and the news from there concerning education is always very sobering. </p>
<p>What I find so strange is that a lot of the very best and most expensive music schools are located right in the middle of some of the economically hardest hit states like Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania.</p>
<p>A lot of people do look at it as crazy when you talk about the kind of money for music, and it isn’t just conservatory, the cost of lessons, instruments, music programs, the gas to get there, summer programs, is large to start with, and people whose idea of music is you play it in school, maybe have a private teacher, and then get serious in college are shocked at the resources people put into it.</p>
<p>I am one of those who will be paying high tuition for a private conservatory, and the reason I am willing to do this is because we are able to scrape up the money to do it and because I have enough confidence in my kid that whatever he decides to do, I think he will do well. People view a specialized program like a conservatory as being this waste, it doesn’t give you skills, when in many ways it might give you a better education then academic schools might give a kid. Compared to many kids going to college right now (non music kids), he already has a leg up on dealing with groups, on working hard towards a goal (getting into both a competitive pre college program and now into top conservatories), the levels of ear training and theory he has had and will have, working in a large ensemble, leading one…</p>
<p>One of the problems is these days parents more and more see college as kind of like a glorified trade school, which it isn’t…and given that fields once though to be lucrative (law, some kinds of medicine, even fields like IT and Accounting that have lost luster thanks to an influx of foreign visa holders and outsourcing, and also these days in investment banking, one of the ‘golden tickets’ people held out for), it could be music students have an edge because they go in, hopefully, with their eyes wide open (unfortunately, there are also a number of talented but totally clueless kids who go in thinking they are going to a top conservatory and will come out the next Lang Lang or Joshua Bell, act like that, and find out it doesn’t work like that…whereas a lot of music kids these days realize it is going to take creativity and ingenuity to make it in music, whatever that is…and if they don’t, they also have the kind of skills to shift that into another area. </p>
<p>As far as money goes, debt, etc, it pays to be realistic and it has to be part of the factor, along with teacher and program as well. Coming out with a lot of debt in any area may be wise to think around, I remember when my brother graduated engineering school the kid who was the valedictorian wanted to go to med school, he had a full ride from one prestigious medical school but instead went to one considered one of the creme de la Creme schools and took on debt, then spent a lot of time in fellowship programs and such to avoid having to pay back that debt…when IMO he might have done as well at the other program…</p>
<p>Going through this process, i realize what a crap shoot it has been, how so many factors affect these kids futures, and what I realize is all you can do is work the details, and figure out what the kid thinks will work best for the future, and from there, ya pray, rub your lucky rabbits foot, and have confidence that the kid has learned enough to do well, no matter what they do:)</p>
<p>musicprnt I have a daughter and two boys. My daughter studied dance and theater seriously. My middle son played a ton of guitar (classical and jazz) and actually spent more time out of school then in school between 8th and 12th grade. Only my middle one is in conservatory. All three have learning challenges. But one thing that my two non-musician kids say is that studying the arts taught them that they can learn anything. And my younger son, who is attending a conservatory, says that all the time. He knows that if he wants to become a physicist or a neuroscientist in the future he has the discipline and the study skills to learn what he needs to learn. </p>
<p>Interestingly the data supports this. When low income kids are provided arts opportunities (not arts as a way to access math and reading, but arts for arts sake) their test scores and performance in their core subjects increase. Nobody is sure why this is happening. But I heard a wonderful lecture by a researcher connected with Harvard’s education school on this and it seems to be a real phenomena.</p>
<p>As I understand it, Music majors do well on the MCAT’s and have a higher acceptance rate into Medical school than Biochemistry majors. I’m sure their intelligence, discipline, ability to perform, etc, could successfully apply to other careers, too.</p>