Intellectual vs Driven

Parent Cafe
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I don’t have a very big sample size, but the kid I know who went to Wesleyan is one of the most curious, interesting kids I know. As a kid he constantly asked questions and was a fount of knowledge especially about all things historical. His other big love was music. He’s now combining his two interests by working on his PhD on the influence of African music on the rest of the world.

My younger son is my more intellectual kid. Also loved history. And video games. He went to Tufts. His main complaint was that they were more interest in talking politics/world affairs than playing games. We think this is pretty funny since he talks a lot about world affairs now. (He’s been working for internationally focused NGOs, but is about ready to do something more active.)

My older son went to Carnegie Mellon. It’s full of people who already know what they want to be when they grow up. They are very driven, but not to get A’s, just to learn what they want to learn. My son studied computer science there, and a good portion of the class stays a fifth year to do a masters which requires doing a thesis and research - so they are intellectual in their field at least.

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I don’t think that’s my job; I think that’s their job.

I do spreadsheets for them to narrow down schools to what matches up with grades, test scores, size, location, and majors (well, just DD17 right now, DD15 has no idea, and that’s fine). But I love hunting data and putting it into pretty color-tagged spreadsheets.

The “feel” of a college-that’s all on them because I’m not in their head.

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Walkoneggshells, you've described my son as well. He's regularly selected the hardest classes at his boarding school because he likes being in a classroom with engaged, smart kids, but he's not really interested in "achieving" in the traditional sense. (In other words, had Bs in classes in which he got 5s on the AP exam because he did only what interested him.) Some of the schools that we looked at that seemed like a fit for that type of kid were Bates, Bard, Union, and Earlham. He was interested in Grinnell and Carleton but felt like his grades weren't good enough and that they might be just too far away. I pushed him to look at Haverford but didn't succeed on that front.

I have felt throughout this process (he’s a senior, so no answers yet) that there’s a continuing tension between finding a place where the others students are stimulating and where they are simply competitive “excellent sheep”. He thought he’d ED at one school, re-visited and sat in on classes where the students didn’t participate, and decided against it. Yet the places where the engagement was the highest – which he liked – may be reaches for him.

Increasingly, one of the things that I’m thinking about is whether it’s best to be challenged (i.e., get into a reach), be in the middle of the pack, or to be a super-star. This depends so much on the kid, but I’ve watched a friend’s daughter absolutely blossom as a result of being the last group. Her mother, who teaches at that school, was worried that her daughter would get “dragged down” by having less ambitious peers, but it seems to have gone the other way altogether.

The feel has to be right, and they need to think honestly about what they’re looking for and why. Interesting thread. THanks!

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My immediate family consists of two intellectually curious parents and two intellectually curious daughters. I went to my state’s flagship and thrived after the first two years, and I loved professional (law) school. My spouse went to a top liberal arts university and I think he enjoyed it as much as he could, given his personality. D1 went to a small private university and attended its nontraditional “school within a school.” She hadn’t liked high school and I feared that she had been permanently turned off from learning, but that did not happen. She blossomed in college. D2 attended a top LAC. She is driven as well as curious, and she too thrived at her college.

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This describes my son perfectly, who, in the middle of his ACT, read the reading passage twice (thoroughly) because the topic was so interesting. Consequently, he ran out of time to answer the last few questions (I was flabbergasted and didn’t know what to say at first when he told me this, but something was boiling inside of me). He is intellectually very curious and often gets distracted by things that aren’t relevant to what he is studying, but will spend hours learning about it. He will help his classmates with their HW or essays while he himself is still working on his at midnight when it’s due the next day. But I can’t try to change who he is. I just hope that he finds a school that he will love being part of.

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Thanks for all of the great responses everyone. I have lots of follow up questions, but I’m shot from getting only 2 hours of sleep last night. I’ll get back on tomorrow and respond.

One thing I do want to clarify right away though, is that I’m in no way saying that the kids at the very elite schools are all drive and that they’re not intellectual. That would obviously be a silly statement to make. I’m sure there are some who get in on pure drive alone, but I’d bet it’s the rare exception.

I’m sure most of the kids at the really elite schools are very intellectual as well as very driven. I’ve just come to accept the fact that my kids are not that way. And I’m wondering what kind of schools would be good for them. The other thing is that none of them have taken the SAT yet. They all have high grades, but so far, no test scores. The second one has always scored very high on standardized tests, but I think the other two might have to work hard for high test scores.

Please keep the ideas coming. Almost forgot, we probably won’t be eligible for much financial aid, so I’m looking for schools that will give at least some merit aid.

I’m curious about the intellectual vibe at all schools, so even if it’s one that we won’t be targeting, I’d still be interested in hearing what people know.

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You asked about merit aid. FYI:

http://www.kiplinger.com/tool/college/T014-S001-kiplinger-s-best-values-in-private-colleges/index.php?table=prv_univ
Note that there are separate lists for LACs and 4 yr universities.

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Don’t miss the various lists at Unigo and the Fiske Guide for a “feel” of what schools are like. Maybe College of Wooster? Every student has to do a thesis, though. But they give Merit Aid, are well-respected, not a party school but still somewhat laid back. On the other hand, I disagree about Case; working hard just to pass is the norm there.

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Sorry, I guess I can’t say that word here. I never knew these free sites were afraid of competition. I agree with their four-star rating though :slight_smile:

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Clark University
Eckerd College

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Sorry, this is going to be really long, but I wanted to respond to everyone who took the time to post their thoughts. Thanks.

@oldfort, that’s an interesting point about unis vs LACs – changing as you mature. I’ve considered that the kids could be too similar to each other at LACs, but hadn’t thought about changing as you age. I went to a university, so guess I never really had to worry about that.

I’m focused on the things I didn’t like about a university, like the large classes and the impersonal atmosphere. In the end, my kids will have to decide for themselves. Your point is a good one to keep in mind. Thanks.

@garland, wow, two nice schools. Wesleyan sounds like the kind of place my son would love. Unfortunately, it will probably be out of reach financially, unless I get a job there, which is a long shot, and a long drive :slight_smile:

@eyemamom, I pictured U Of Rochester as a very competitive place. It’s good to know that it’s not. It’s definitely on our list, but as a financial reach.

@am9799, I feel your pain. My oldest is doing well in high school, but if there’s a party or a get together with her friends, she’s quick to leave her homework behind, returning to it LATE Sunday night. I can’t really blame her, but it’s hard to watch sometimes :slight_smile:

My current tactic of laying completely off her, and just encouraging her and telling her how great she’s doing seems to be working. What a concept, right? I should have thought of this earlier :slight_smile:

But when it comes to ECs, that tactic is not working at all. I’m pretty sure she’ll do absolutely nothing more than her one sport and some tutoring if I don’t come up with ideas for her, and apply some pressure.

“Where they end up is where their path leads them, and that’s cool.”

@MotherOfDragons, I try to remind myself of this, and I agree, in general. But in the extreme case, like with my oldest daughter, her own path will likely limit her to state schools only. I’m fine with that, but I’m concerned that although she’s fine with that now, she won’t be when she’s old enough to fully understand how many schools she’s ruled out.

“You want to check the specific depts, though, how they’re structured. See if they’re the right match.”

@lookingforward, I’ve been trying to do a bit of this based on tips from CCers. It’s time consuming, but well worth it.

@intparent, I’ve been checking the Common Data Sets at a web site that aggregates them. I think I mentioned the site here before, and it got blanked out. I guessing the info there is accurate but I haven’t really cross checked it. I’ll do that as a sanity check.

Regarding test scores, my sister has been telling me the same thing. Her daughter got good merit aid, but not as good as she was expecting. She had very high grades, and solid scores, but not super high.
Did your daughter do any prep classes for the SAT?

@Pootie, @Youdon’tsay, thanks for the info on Carleton. I love everything I’ve heard about it, and I think my kids would really like the kids in the Midwest. Unfortunately, merit aid is a major factor for us. I don’t expect to get any financial aid until I have 2 kids in school at the same time.

@powercropper, I plan to do a lot of digging. I’ll let you know how it goes.

@N’s Mom, I totally agree about letting the child do the driving, but don’t forget, the whole problem is she’s not very driven :slight_smile:

Just kidding. She (the oldest) is still a sophomore, so I’m trying to do as much research up front, so we have plenty of information by the time she’s ready to really get into it – hopefully next year. At that point, it’s going to be totally up to her, and she’ll choose without any interference, as long as we can afford it.

Grinnell would be high on my list if I could go be an 18 year old again. It looks like they give money, but you need some pretty serious stats to get it.

@Musicprnt, I agree with what you’re saying about there being a mix of students, especially at the bigger schools. I responded to your point, without mentioning your name, further up in the thread.

@katliamom, interesting. Like I said above, I never really thought about outgrowing a school in that way. I did think that my kids might have to transfer to a university to get a more complete selection of electives. Looking into colleges is not a good research project for someone with OCD, such as myself, because there’s no perfect school!

@mathmom, I had the impression that Carnegie Mellon is a very intense, competitive place. I figured Tufts might be a little less so, but not by much. Did your kids find them to be super competitive schools?

@gardenstategal, I’ve researched all of the schools you mentioned, and I like them all. I think my kids might be too mainstream politically for Bard, which brings me back to Carleton. I’ve never been there, but I think it’s the place my kids would probably fit in the best personality wise and politically, but that’s just a guess from what I’ve read. Too bad it’s so expensive.

I’m pondering the whole super star to challenged spectrum, too. It’s so important, and so tricky. I’m definitely going to leave it up to my kids, but I think they need guidance on it too. I had an older brother who literally scared me out of applying to some schools – not good guidance :slight_smile:

@rosered55, sounds like you made good choices. I hope we’re that lucky.

@Anamgol, your son sounds like me in college. I made it out. I’m sure he will too.

@GMTplus7, thanks for that link. I almost didn’t read it, because I saw the title, and thought I had already seen it, but the one I saw gave a total percentage for merit aid recipients that included people who also got financial aid. The number in this list is much more meaningful.

@badpundit, College of Wooster is very high on my list (my daughter doesn’t have a list :-), yet), and they give merit aid. I didn’t really know anything about the intellectual vibe there, so it’s good to hear it mentioned here. That’s one we’re definitely going to visit. I’m not sure if you can PM me the site that got starred out, or if that’s against the rules. Thanks.

@brantly, thanks for the suggestions. I’ve looked at Clark a bit, but although Eckerd has been on my list, I haven’t looked into it much at all. Going to check it out. Thanks.

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Regarding class size at state schools: my daughter is a freshman at what is considered a " top 5" OOS public. She had a very rough transition ( small fish/big sea) but by mid October she was in love with her school. Three of her classes had under 30 students. Two classes were lecture halls ( 150, 200) that were taught as flipped classrooms. She sat front and center, participated in on-going class discussions even though it was a large class, attended all office hours and special instruction classes, etc. All of her professors knew her name and 3 recently wrote her very detailed recommendation letters for a summer program. One of her lecture hall professors recently emailed her and invited her to sign up for a special research class. Another one invited her to present a paper at a multi-school on-campus conference. She was able to turn her big school ( which she loves) into a smaller school where she can be fully engaged in discussions ( which she also loves). I was against a large school initially because I was nervous she would not like large classes and find it impersonal. I was wrong- she made it work and is very happy. Next semester 4 of her classes have under 30 students and one class is a lecture with another flipped classroom.

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OP, per your question, my kids prepped with prep books and me. :slight_smile: Both were avid readers since an early age, so fortunately SAT CR came very easily to them. They did a little writing prep, but most of the focus was on math. They studied the sections in the prep books, then took practice tests. We went over the ones they missed together, they made flash cards on what they learned from it, then they tested again. We did it late Sunday afternoons, the only time HS students ever seem to have “free”. Both took the SAT twice, and tried the ACT once.

Regarding the LAC university question, I went to a large highly regarded flagship. My experience there with large class sizes, too many TAs with poor Englush skills, and pretty much non-existent advising pushed me in the direction of LACs for my kids. Both visited large schools, they didn’t really care much for them. LACs have worked well for both kids. The older one who took merit at a second tier LAC spent all of junior year off campus at two different programs, which helps with the small size. The younger picked one with the most smart kids she could find in one place and has had to step up her academic game a ton. She is happy, and has no time to be bored.

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I think Wesleyan has been mentioned already but that’s a good school for kids who are intellectually curious. We just visited in early December and we sat in the student center surrounded by tables of kids having discussions about books and politics, etc. Reed, Carleton also come to mind. For kids who are both intellectual and driven, I think Chicago, Yale and Swarthmore are good reaches.

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Take a look at my alma mater, St. John’s College (one campus in Annapolis, one campus in Sante Fe). SJC is about as intellectual as it gets.

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Carnegie Mellon is intense, but it’s not cutthroat. There’s a real spirit of collaboration. The alumni network is fabulous. My son actually made friends with alumni freshman year via their online chatrooms. Those connections helped him get summer internships. He was always the smartest kid in the room in school. What I wanted for him in college was to find kids who were smarter than him. There were lots of them at CMU. I don’t think he could have found a better fit.

My Tufts kid had always been happy to get the A- rather than the A. He was always happy to play a video game rather than do homework. He had decent ECs and won some ribbons in the state level of Sci Olympiad despite really being a history kid. He worked very hard at Tufts, partly as a function of the courses he took. He took one as a freshman which is notorious for consuming your life the year you take it - a small seminar with students from every year study a topic in depth with speakers from the field and at the end of the year they organize a conference for local high school students and another one for the experts in the field. He also took Arabic every year which was very hard for him. He almost changed his major from IR because it was so difficult. He still found time to watch an awful lot of Netflix movies though! (I assume he also played video games, but we can’t see those.) He got about the same grades as in high school, but I think worked harder. I feel he grew up a lot. It was very good for him.

Three of my brother’s kids ended up at St. John’s. If you buy into the great books curriculum, it’s a great place. Though I was amused to see my niece who is interested in the foreign service say that while it’s easy to find someone to talk about Plato, it’s harder to have a discussion about current events in the Africa.

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No, St. John’s does not bill itself as a place to study current events in Africa. The great books curriculum is outstanding intellectual preperation for a wide variety of professions that require critical thinking. It prepared me to get a Ph.D. in neuroscience from a top 10 graduate school and launched my career in scientific publishing. Another college friend is an MD-PhD in anesthesiology professor at UMich, another is a law professor at Notre Dame. (And I’m sure there are plenty who are working as waiters figuring out what to do next too.)

PS. Funny you should mention current events in Africa and St. John’s… One my former classmates at SJC is currenty the New York Times Johannesburg Bureau Chief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Polgreen

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Beloit College? Less of a reach than some, it is a very interesting place with good merit money.

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I’d look into College of Wooster. I first heard of the school while reading Loren Pope’s ‘Colleges that Change Lives.’ Pope said something to the effect of “Wooster is great at taking B and C students and turning them into A students who are passionate and informed about their discipline.” I get the sense that the student body isn’t competitive, rather more collaborative, and that students truly grow in their time there.

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Lots of good ideas. My kid is kind of driven, but I would like to find a similar school as what you describe, just so she can chill out a bit! One that wasn’t on our radar is Macalester…so I’ll add that to my spreadsheet to check out. A couple other suggestions: (hard without knowing stats): Lawrence and Kalamazoo. Maybe Hendrix?