I agree with @uesmomof2 – Wesleyan is a great choice for intellectually alive kids. The students I know who went there were multi-faceted, involved and accomplished.
My new favorite CC thread.
I guess it depends on the high school you attend but looking at our Naviance some of those colleges listed in this thread are very hard to get in unless you are top student and very driven. OP once you get the sat/act scores you will have a better idea of the choices. The CTCL are the most reliable in merit and acceptances (looking again at our high school’s data). I think there are 2 different kinds of not very driven students. The ones that are not that driven but still get excellent grades and scores and the ones that in paper they do not achieve as much although they are very intellectual. The first ones obviously have more choices. Unfortunately my kid falls in the second category. Now if you add the merit parameter that eliminates very quickly a whole lot of schools.
Define intellectual. Doubt anyone comes up with a definition everyone can agree on. State flagship schools have some very intellectual students and are large enough for students to have intellectual peers in many areas. Some intellectuals are driven, some are not. Some are driven but not intellectual. Some are into literature others into science. Or art. Or music. Or… Or multiple areas.
Pet peeve of mine is those who consider literature knowledge a sign of intellectualism without any consideration of the sciences. Some of the colleges listed do not impress me at all because they only cater to some fields of interest. I think science people have higher expectations than humanities people in our society- science people are expected to become knowledgeable in humanities but the latter are not expected to discourse on science topics it seems.
I also see driven as not just going for grades but being intense about reaching a level in a given area. This may not correlate with grades if the area is not the one being evaluated.
To me intellectuals talk about their studies outside class. Ideally they make connections across fields, but I wouldn’t say that’s an absolute requirement. I know I have had some interesting conversations in college about someone’s math thesis, about the expanding universe, about string theory, about the relationship of religion and evolution. I also remember talking about music, history, literature and the arts.
I was a Literature major, but started out in biology, and I’ve always been interested in science; as well as history, art, music, etc.
I think of intellectualism as encompassing all of the arts and sciences…
My husband is an engineer who went to law school, and who plays music and paints… He and I have conversations about science news all the time, as well as the arts.
I think most educated people are fairly well-rounded like this…
I also went to a huge state university and found plenty of “intellectual” people to hang out with. Some of them even liked basketball and football, :). (I didn’t.)
I’d say it’s a person who is curious about the world around them and is actively engaged in the pursuit of knowledge.
@WalknOnEggShells Great thread. Love the way you described each of your kids (mine matches your #3). If your kid is bright and curious and engaged but just not racking up the stats (GPA etc.) to prove it, plus you’re looking for merit aid, I heartily second the recommendation to look at CTCL schools. Of those, we particularly liked College of Wooster, which is currently high on my kid’s list of possibilities. (Jury still out until RD results – from a lot of the other schools mentioned here – come back.)
I went to a large state flagship that has an intense engineering and pre-med program. But I majored in philosophy which was not a competitive major and avoided the rat race classes for the most part. I turned out okay (well, not if you ask my kids… LOL :). I remember my college years fondly – of many nights, and days, indulging in my curiosity and engaging in stimulating conversations. I want that for my kids.
Maybe it matters less what school they go to – and matters more what they major in?
I think some majors are more condusive to finding what I think of as intellectuals, but if you certainly don’t have to be friends with students in your major. I really had no close friends in my major even though with many studio classes there was a lot of friendly chitchat. For some reason I tended to hang out with the scientists.
I agree that different people use the word “intellectual” to mean different things.
There are schools at which kids are actively engaged in their school work and discuss it outside of class, but few of them read a newspaper or even a weekly news magazine. IME, several of the colleges described as “intellectual” in this thread fall in that category.
Some people include the strength of “intellectual” ECs as one criterion for choosing such a college. How many publications are there—are any literary type journals, etc. ? How many speakers are invited to campus and who are they? How high is attendance at events? Is it mandatory or voluntary? Some people consider the strength of the arts. How many performing arts groups are there? How high is the quality of EC type music and drama? If the student orchestra performs classical music, do many students attend? To other people, these things have nothing to do with being intellectual.
Post #50 only mentions one half of being intellectual. What about weighting math and science discussions and seminars equally with humanities? Those who only consider the latter are lacking breadth. Also- discussing schoolwork but rather topics outside those studied in one’s courses is more intellectual than sticking to the material formally presented. And- current events? Reading material chosen by newspapers doesn’t grab me intellectually- too often garbagy in even the NYT and other big city papers. Reading Scientific American or Nature is much more intellect demanding.
The friend who introduced me to ice hockey also was big into Gothic architecture among her many interests. Getting A’s was not her priority despite meeting requirements for an Honors degree. Intellectual- yes. Driven-no.
^Right. Not being so into the one area that gets one ahead. I think that is what the OP meant to begin with. Wanting to understand something for its own sake, not how it’s a stepping stone. That might be true in any major.
I think that distinction is very clear. It’s been true of my D, myself, and my kids, anyway. And our majors spanned the possible (one double hum/science, one hum, and two soc science).
It isn’t all that hard, you can get straight A’s in college, get into that brilliant career track as a doctor/lawyer/investment banker/engineer/computer geek and not be an intellectual (getting good grades is not a sign of intelligence, it is a sign of dilligence and also knowing how to play the game when it comes to grades, in terms of what the professor wanted). Intellectual to me comes with curiousity about things rather than doing them because ‘you have to’, and it also comes down to actually caring enough to want to know why/how things happen and also try and understand other’s ideas in coming to some sort of conclusion. Often the driven see being ‘intellectual’ as a waste of time, though there obviously are people who were both driven and intellectual, though what drove them often isn’t what we attribute to ‘driven’ people a lot of the time.
If someone asked me to give someone I thought was an intellectual, it wouldn’t be some pompous idiot who glorifies in being an intellectual, it would be someone like Richard Feynman, who defined his world by what he didn’t know, rather than by what he did know, and had the curiousity to expand into what he didn’t know, rather than focusing on ‘his’ area. He happened to be a physicist, but that could apply to anyone at any education level, it is about loving to learn for its own sake and looking at things around you with wonder, rather than boredom.
In post #50 I wasn’t talking about what makes an intellectual individual, but about how you can tell which colleges have a high percentage of intellectual students.
So many great posts. I have to admit, I’m a little behind on this thread due to work obligations. The nerve of these people 
I’ll chime in on the definition of intellectual, and then try to catch up tomorrow.
I guess I should have defined my terms. First, regarding the title of this thread, I was not implying that intellectual and driven are mutually exclusive, although I can see why it could have seemed that way, given that I used the term “vs”. I was just trying to be concise. Intellectual and driven obviously go hand in hand in many cases.
I guess I have a definition of intellectual in my mind, and I should have expressed it. I don’t claim ownership of the word, so feel free to disagree, but this is what it means to me:
-Intense curiosity, to the point where people might think you’re a little weird.
-The desire and stamina to delve so deeply into things that most “unweird” people bail, and wonder
what’s wrong with you.
-The ability to talk about one topic for hours on end, when there’s no alcohol involved, and all the normal
people have already fallen asleep.
I guess we can all use words however we want to, but when I say someone’s intellectual, that’s what I mean. For me, IQ and accomplishments don’t really factor very much into the equation.
I agree with looking at the CTCL schools, it is a good place to start. Once you have an idea of test scores (some libraries offer free testing or they can take a practice test at home), you can get some idea of merit aid through various school’s NPC. We have found a spreadsheet definitely helps. Schools get added or drop off with better definition of major, location, etc as the process progresses. Some websites offer a download of your specific search which can be another good starting point. You can research the schools on CC and get a good idea of the school vibe.
As a side note, we have been through the process recently and found starting early worked for us (sophomore year). Our DD found a school she felt best matched her, we researched to find what scores she needed for good merit aid, and studied to increase her test scores a few points to get it. We are just starting for DS. He has strong test scores with a smart, “nice kid” personality. We will be casting a wide net to include strong merit aid schools and a few reaches. College tours will give us the fit factor. Enjoy the ride and keep us posted!
My intellectual kid could sniff it out in a day’s visit. The classroom discussion when she sat in on them, what kids talked about in the cafeterias and common spaces, tour guide comments – she knew. Not sure what you are getting at with the sciences comment – my intellectual loves literature, art, opera – and is a physics major. And she thinks mathematics (some of it) is elegant and fascinating. I think the comments above about curiosity nails it – someone or something being “interesting” is the highest praise my kid can give.
OP, you’ve described my kid to a tee! He’s a definite Number Three; he’s obsessed with interests that others would think of as “academic” and loves to talk, talk, talk about them … clever, funny, curious, with a steel-trap memory about many topics. But spending hours working on papers and studying to get them just perfect by his teachers’ standards and prove he’s brainy? Uh, not so much. In fact he’s liable to get distracted from his assigned work to chase down some fascination – maybe Russian politics, maybe the biology of squids, maybe Icelandic sagas.
I wish he had more of a competitive streak – as in “competitive in front of his teachers” – but somehow it’s not about that for him. I’d definitely say he’s “intellectual rather than driven.” In fact, he’s been very clear that even if he COULD get into Princeton or Harvard, he wouldn’t want to go! He’s looking for an atmosphere that’s laid-back but engaged and curious, where it’s okay to be a relaxed nerd
So we’ve looked for schools that seem to be associated with buzzwords like quirky, nerdy, collaborative and friendly. (Another CTCL checker here ) Then we’ve looked at depts / courses in his specific areas of interest to see what rocks his boat and gets him all enthused about signing up for the class. I feel like I could open up shop as a college guidance counselor after all of this, LOL …
You just described Sheldon Cooper, lol.