Interested in your views on ethics/morality

berurah · May 3, 2007, 2:59pm

Hey y’all~

A couple of recent events have really gotten me to thinking about the subjects of ethics/morality, and I’m truly interested in the input of the parents on this forum.

Pardon me if this post is a bit less coherent than usual–I honestly can’t even organize my own thoughts on this, so I’m going to just put some thoughts/questions out here that may appear to be (and in fact may BE lol) rather random.

This morning in our local paper, there is the story of the associate vice president of academic affairs (no pun intended ) at one of the city’s four year universities who was apparently caught in a sting operation trying to solicit sex from an underage girl. He was fired from his position at the university within days of this revelation. 
<a href=“http://www.wichitaeagle.com/196/story/60614.html[/url]”>http://www.wichitaeagle.com/196/story/60614.html</a>

Then, there are the events around Marilee Jones and her 28-year-long deception at MIT.

And, of course, where would we be without the lastest D.C. sex scandal:
<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/28/AR2007042801192.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/28/AR2007042801192.html</a>

I’ve been following the MIT thread in the Parents Forum, and there are some very divergent views on how to view/react to the actions of Marilee Jones. While some take the hard line stance and feel that Ms. Jones should be soundly condemned and humiliated for her actions–and her work over her years in admissions brought into question, others seem to feel that forgiveness and gentleness are in order as we attempt to understand the whys of what happened–and that we separate out Ms. Jones’s body of work from her deceptive actions.

All of the above brings me to the following questions, and this is where I’m very interested in your input.

1.) Are there any sins so great that we simply cannot separate the “sinner” from the “sin”?

2.) What right, if any, do we have to expect moral/ethical behavior from others when each of us has “sinned” in our own ways? In other words, to the folks on the Marilee thread who call for all of us to look in the mirror and then dare to cast a stone, DO WE have the right to cast that stone?

3.) Is a little white lie such as, “No, Johnny can’t come to the phone right now; he’s in the shower,” (when Johnny really doesn’t want to talk to his gf right then) the equivalent of a bigger, much more damaging lie?

4.) Has our society become so desensitized to ethically and morally bankrupt behavior that we simply don’t give a flip anymore?

5.) Does it take someone’s being perfect to expect decent behavior out of others, or do we have the right to demand some level of integrity even if we ourselves are imperfect?

6.) If you knew/respected a person before, but came to find out something stunningly deviant about them, can you still respect him, or does that (or SHOULD that) alter your view of the person as a whole?

7.) What is “forgiveness,” what is its role, and whom does it benefit?

8.) Is it sometimes O.K. to NOT forgive?

9.) What, if not the essential character of a person, constitutes that person?

10.) What is the effect on our growing children of seeing SO much unethical behavior from people of all means and all walks of life?

11.) How do we teach our children that which some of their “heroes” are not modeling?

Feel free to answer any of these questions or create some of your own.

A random thought:

Although many people have commented on the MIT thead in the Parents Forum, I have noticed some conspicuous absences of adult posters who have not hesitated for a nanosecond to rip a teen a new one for even CONSIDERING reneging on an ED commitment (when I first came to the forum, one of these teens was being labeled “the next Enron perpetrator” by a poster for starting a discussion of backing out of an ED commitment). I find this both interesting and curious. To ME, one of these “sins” is far more egregious than the other, and yet some of the staunchest bastions of morality have decided not to comment on a very significant case. Why is this?

I’m sorry that this post is so long. I just CANNOT wrap my head around this stuff right now. The only thing I DO know is that by some minor miracle, I have been successful (KNOCKING ON WOOD HERE) in raising reasonably ethical children, at least by the standards of society, the schools, and us, their parents. I’m beginning to wonder, though, how this is even possible to do.

Thanks in advance for your input…I am seriously pondering these things right now, and I myself have no definitive answers to these questions.

~berurah

A.S.A.P · May 3, 2007, 3:59pm

?

This is something I’ve worried about lately. I think seeing so much dishonesty breeds great cyncism in our youth. How could it not? 
And those who defend or excuse the dishonest add to the problem.

Will the young come to believe dishonesty is the norm- that being a decent honest person means being a push-over, unlikey to rise to the highest levels?

I am seeing more cynicism. However, I think there is plenty of evidence that supports the claim that the parents and family make the greatest impact on children’s character and moral values. I believe this. Strong families and role models within them can counteract a lot of societal flimflam. My kids have been watching the collapse of integrity in our government and elsewhere for years. That hasn’t changed their values. This is what I hold onto when it seems like the whole country has lost its moral compass.

FireBadTreePretty · May 3, 2007, 4:03pm

Lot’s of stuff there! I’ll take a crack at a couple of them, though.
I have lied on occasion, even cheated on occasion. Does that mean that I am precluded from judging someone else who does likewise? Depends what we mean by “judging.” If I get up on my high horse and cluck at “how could they??!!”, then I am likely a hypocrite. But - if I support there being consequences of their actions, I think that’s ok, since there were consequences to mine and even when there weren’t, I would have accepted them if they came. Does that make sense? Judge, for example, my reaction to Marilee’s situation. I can understand what she did. I don’t consider her evil, or morally bankrupt, or any ofthe terms I’v seen used. But she needed to be fired. Consequences.
Is there any sin so great we can’t separate the sin from the sinner? Sexual abuse of a child by an adult. There needs to be a special place in hell for that and failing that, a prison cell. For a long time. Also answers the question is it sometimes ok not to forgive.
While I’d like to think that people will behave ethically, civilly and courteously because that is the right thing to do (the super ego if you will), I think it is more likely that they will do so for fear of consequences. Which is why I fear that a society that in its well meaning desire to be kinder and gentler wants to forgive, forget, treat - anything but impose consequences, participates in its own decline.
When I respect someone, and find out something dreadful about them, it does color my view and makes me question it. “A person is judged not by his abilities but by his choices.” So if I have admired someone who made an ethically questionable choice, it can’t help but color my view of that person holistically. But again, it depends what that choice was. There are degrees. “Telling me Johnny is in the shower” won’t trouble me.

berurah · May 3, 2007, 4:07pm

This mirrors my concern exactly. In the “old days,” it seemed like there was some credit given for HOW something was accomplished. Now, however, it just matters that it WAS accomplished, whether by cheating, lying, stealing, or good ol’ fashioned work. It’s all the same to many.

smile_dog · May 3, 2007, 4:11pm

I love the notion of the Moral Compass. It seems to me to capture some elements of the swirl of indecision and negative influences that we find ourselves caught in from time to time. The image I have in my mind is of turning this way and that before looking off to the horizon and saying “oh yes, that’s the way I should go.” It seems to make the process of moral decisionmaking so much simpler and, in these complicated (and somewhat frightening) times, I appreciate that.

UMDAD · May 3, 2007, 4:20pm

berurah,

Excellent, thought provoking post.

I would like to throw the current “apology mania” into the mix. What is the role of an apology and what is its relationship to foregiveness?

I love the notion of the Golden Rule. I find that it covers most situations. I remember reading a book for a philosophy class in college called “Situation Ethics.” I always had a problem with that premise.

coronax2 · May 3, 2007, 4:55pm

Berurah, you’ve presented so many interesting and pertinent points. Many of us in the Cafe are launching young adults, ready to take on the world. I’ve also pondered many of the questions you’ve asked us to respond to. I’ll start at number one. I hope to get through all eleven.

Firebadtreepretty has already spoken to child sexual abuse. Unspeakable crimes have been committed against children, and I could never separate the perpetrator from these crimes.

Depending on one’s religious beliefs, simply asking for forgiveness, may be all that is necessary for absolution. As a human, I can’t always judge the sincerity of someone’s act of contrition. A tearful, public “I’m sorry” is so often seen today, ONCE the person is caught in the act. I find myself doubting the sincerity of people who make these public apologies, because I don’t often see (feel) a true feeling of remorse. Often the remorse that comes through, is the remorse of getting caught.

So, yes, I can separate the “sin from the sinner”. Although, in many situations, I would also need to see a change of character before I would be willing to separate the two.

atomom · May 3, 2007, 5:12pm

<h1>4. Unfortunately, yes. :(</h1>

wharfrat2 · May 3, 2007, 5:25pm

No answers but I do have another question

Is it enough to do the right thing or do you have to do the right thing for the right reason?

sax · May 3, 2007, 5:38pm

Is there a universal human agreement on what personal characteristics are considered moral and or ethical? Are ethics and morality something that varies by culture?

berurah · May 3, 2007, 5:41pm

EXTREMELY intriguing question and one I’ve often thought about. I have some ideas formulating on this which I’ll try to post later.

Another truly excellent question…

~berurah

coronax2 · May 3, 2007, 5:55pm

I’m guilty of white lies to spare hurting a friend’s feelings. I have, at times, not expressed my true feelings to avoid hurting others. By nature, I’m a very sensitive person, so it’s hard for me to not to treat someone else with the same sensitivity.

I do, however, feel very confident in confronting someone who has blatantly lied and mislead others. My children also know the difference between an honest mistake and a lie.

I feel good about myself when I look into the proverbial mirror, and I want my kids to have that same confidence.

CAdream · May 3, 2007, 6:08pm

“Depending on one’s religious beliefs, simply asking for forgiveness, may be all that is necessary for absolution.”

And then God is with you through the consequences, through the public humiliation, and gives you strength to pay restitution. Having absolution doesn’t mean the going will be easy here on earth.

dadofsam · May 3, 2007, 6:10pm

Long on questions, short on time. Just have a few moments for a couple of thoughts and am a slow typist to boot.

<ol>
<li>One of my pet peeves: an attitude that if enough people want to do something or think they ought be able to do something, it ought to be allowed, even if it amounts to what is otherwise considered stealing. Here’s the latest example of what looks to me like an okay to steal, issued by what amounts to virtual mob rule.</li>
</ol>

<a href=“http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/05/03/MNG4RPK18J1.DTL&type=tech[/url]”>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/05/03/MNG4RPK18J1.DTL&type=tech</a>

<ol>
<li> Wharfrat asked: Is it enough to do the right thing or do you have to do the right thing for the right reason?</li>
</ol>

There is a stream among classic Jewish commentators that while it’s preferable to do the right thing for the right reason, many of us are not so perfect. Therefore, the argument goes, if one starts out doing the right thing for the wrong reason, or for no good reason at all except that this is what you are supposed to do, the behavior can become ingrained so that in the end you wind up doing it for the right reason after all. A typical subject is the commandment to return someone’s lost property if you happen to come across it. According to the Bible/Torah, you are supposed to do that, and not just ignore it, so that if you do it because you are supposed to, after a few times, it will become part of your regular behavior. Or so they say.

</li>
</ol>

Amen. Somehow it’s almost always been possible, with a lot of work.

mathmom · May 3, 2007, 6:11pm

I think apologies that don’t include reparations are pretty useless. At least MJ resigned, though obviously she was pressured to do so. I wish that we as a society would realize it might be kinder to blow the whistle when we catch a fraud. Wouldn’t it have been better for MJ to have been forced to fess up 25 years ago? Someone must have known early on surely.

My personal philosophy (which comes out of the Ethical Culture Movement) is to try to be mindful of how I treat others so that it brings out the best in them. This is a bit more pro-active I think than merely the Golden Rule. It really means trying to think about consequences in both the long and short term. But I’m no saint in actually putting this to practice. (Golden rule might say, I wouldn’t want to be snitched on so I won’t snitch. My rule says, if I tell now before it’s a BIG lie, this person may get a new position based on the truth instead of a lie.)

I think there’s room for white lies. My favorite example is from an interview I heard with Lemony Snickett. (David Handler in real life.) A Mom told him that she objected to his books because he said sometimes you have to lie. To which he smiled sweetly at her and said, “MMM, NICE sweater.” :)

soozievt · May 3, 2007, 6:11pm

Those are a lot of thought provoking questions and at the moment, I don’t have time to ponder them all.

I think when someone does something that is unethical or immoral, that doesn’t always mean (for me) that I dismiss everything about that person. I might despise their unethical or immoral act or their lies, but I don’t necessarily despise the person or think ill of all the good things that they have also done. Case in point would be Marilee Jones…as I wrote on that thread, what she did was very wrong and unethical and I think she needs to pay the consequences for that now (at the least she lost her job). I don’t think that means she is a bad person or that every other thing she has done is bad. But surely this one thing was very wrong.

Also, I think some of it has to do with the degree of the “sin.” What Marilee did, as an example, doesn’t rank up (for me) with someone who has murdered or raped, commited child sexual abuse, etc.

Another aspect is that an apology often is NOT enough (in my book). I think the person who did something egregious needs to make amends. I don’t think forgiveness is just automatic because the person simply said, “I’m sorry.” I think the person should make up for it and also that over time, others can build trust again in them depending on IF they earn it by changing their unethical or immoral behaviors. I don’t have to cast the person aside permanently for one thing they did, IF they truly are sincerely apologetic and make attempts to change their behaviors and “reform” if you will. Lots of people make poor choices in life and I don’t think one poor choice has to be a statement on everything about their life in the past, present or future. It can be an opportunity to EARN forgiveness if they truly make some changes and recognize the harm they inflicted on others (in some cases).

And yes, these public cases of unethical behavior can cause our youth to become skeptical if always doing the right thing will pay off when they see so many who lie and cheat (etc) and often times get ahead or get away with it. But it is also good to point out that many are caught and the consequences aren’t always pretty in terms of either the law, loss of job/family, fall from grace, shame, etc.

By the way, Berurah, when I used to be an elementary school teacher at our local school before my kids were born and attended it, one day the police came in and quietly removed the principal and arrested him on child sexual abuse for crimes commited at a prior school where he had been employed in the past, and for which he eventually landed in jail. We had to deal with young children in our school over this incident. Then, not too long ago, an acting superintendent in our district was removed (or it may have been when he went to the next job, I’m fuzzy on the timing) when he had used the school copier to print out pornography (can you imagine the stupidity of doing that AT school??). So, even in my little rural corner of the world, I can relate to the story you shared at the start of your post.

notre_dame_AL · May 3, 2007, 6:19pm

Not to vary off-topic too much, but I wonder if it seems that there is so much MORE unethical behavior these days. Do you think it has always existed at this current pace, or is it because our media can so readily point out the behavior? I too have struggled with what I see and hear all the time! Just a couple of days ago headlines were rolling across CNN and other top news organizations about Duke students found cheating. My first reaction was cheating in school exists everywhere. But, in reflection, I have to wonder if the media didn’t jump on this one. Believe me, I am not condoning unethical behavior–just wondering if it is more rampant these days.

corranged · May 3, 2007, 6:27pm

I hate to be such a typical University of Chicago student, but the best way to explore the answers to these questions is to read. The greatest thinkers throughout time have asked these and other questions, and you can add a tremendous richness to your life by carefully digesting and and considering these texts. You can’t just read an overview of what each philosopher believed. You must slowly read their books in order to see the way each philosopher asked questions, sought answers, and finally put it together in a belief system that made sense to him. The best way to think about these topics is to open a sort of dialogue with the authors of these texts. You must let the text challenge you, and then challenge it in return and seek the answer the author would give. The majority of your questions come back to the notion of what it means to be human; what is humanity. You cannot look at what people do and what they decide without first looking at who they are at the very core as human beings. Dedicating yourself to thoughtfully reading and examining texts is the best way, in my opinion, to go about answering questions such as the ones you’ve posed. You may never find satisfactory answers, but if you never take the step to read past works, then I am certain that you will never find any meaningful answer. I’m in the process of applying for a special major at my college. There is a small point in just one of your questions, something that you didn’t directly address. If I am accepted into this major, I will spend the next three years of my college career examining this one factor that you were able to just gloss over. Your questions are big, and the more you study each one the bigger it will seem.

berurah · May 3, 2007, 6:28pm

I had the exact same thought. Duke brings BIG headlines after the LAX scandal. It’s funny…I was sitting with my hubster, watching the news and seeing the ticker at the bottom endlessly informing us of the cheating scandal at Duke, and I turned to him and asked why that should have so much precedence over the events at MIT. One involved students (bad enough), but the other involved the head honcho involved in selecting students for an elite university over 9 years (much, much worse). What makes the news is a function of what the people in charge think will “sell.”

~berurah

berurah · May 3, 2007, 6:34pm

corranged~

You are, of course, most correct here, but that isn’t really what I’m after. I have read a good deal on these subjects, and yet, I am still filled with questions as to the thinking of my peers and younger people about these questions. I can’t help but believe that something has changed in our society/culture. I just cannot IMAGINE the softer, forgiving attitude toward some of these egregious wrongdoings being popular 40 or 50 years ago. Now, I don’t know whether the stronger adherence to ethics/morals was only surface level (and these things still took place but were not revealed/publicized), but there does seem to have been some fundamental change in the way of thinking about and reacting to these types of misdeeds. At least that’s the way I am perceiving it.

~berurah

Interested in your views on ethics/morality

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