<p>Of particular interest is the comment by one reseacher on the “mis-use” of AP courses in the admission decision.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-01-25-ap_x.htm[/url]”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-01-25-ap_x.htm</a></p>
<p>I think that if you have a great student in a school that does not send many kids to the schools where yours wants to go, a slate of AP exams will help the college see where he stands among other stellar students. Yes, the SAT2 does as well, but that is more a measure of highschool level subjects. The AP measures a competency of college level subjects. It can be a big help to an adcom to see that 5 in AP French along with the A’s in the subject and a great reference from the French teacher. The AP French tests go worlds beyond the SAT2 subject tests.</p>
<p>Understood, but what about the researcher’s point that using AP tests for admissions decisions has not been validated for that purpose. It may indeed be a good indicator, once the tool has been validated.</p>
<p>“AP courses were originally developed to place students into higher-level college courses,” he said. “It is now being used in admission decisions, a purpose for which it is not intended and for which it has not been validated”</p>
<p>So what. The SAT HAS been validated, and it’s a crappy predictor. You should read the CB’s actual research, especially when the SAT is combined with GPA/class rank (I forgot which).</p>
<p>The AP courses are the only national curricula we have, and the exams are a wonderful control, especially since they cover material that is likely to be far more relevant to college studies. And we want adcoms to ignore this? </p>
<p>Even funnier, the College Board, on its website, says:</p>
<p>"The AP Program regularly conducts research studies to assess whether AP students perform as well as, or better than, their non-AP peers in higher-level college courses. A recent study that analyzed college grades of over 72,000 college students at 20 different colleges illustrated that:</p>
<pre><code>* Students who receive AP Exam grades of 3, 4, or 5, and bypass introductory courses, perform as well or better in upper-level classes than those students who first complete the introductory course.
<p>In another document on their website, they quote Fitzimmons of Harvard “One of the best standard predictors of Academic success at Harvard is performance on AP Examinations.”</p>
<p>So, you get the idea.</p>
<p>This leads me to think that the CB’s push for more AP exams is all about $$$.</p>
<p>you think? The CB wants $$$!</p>
<p>Makes me wonder - if students enter college with 20 or so APs, why do they even need 4 years of college at all?</p>
<p>Tookie, I see the AP courses as foundational, given that they tend to be broader & more like a college freshman course than an upper-division seminar. Thus, i.m.o., they would never replace the 4 yrs. of college, or fulfill requirements for the Major. However, I do wonder why a h.s. student would want to cram in “20.” (Can they?) That is, I wonder because it is not likely that those 20 would truly substitute for the exact intro or survey courses required by most colleges. Also, some AP courses (& teachers) are pretty exciting, some pretty dull. One should enjoy a little bit of high school & take some pleasurable non-AP electives, as well, methinks. That also helps the student define his pleasure more, for the purpose of admissions review.</p>
<p>Jamimom, I’m with you. And whether or not the AP courses & exams were “intended” (originally) to be an admissions litmus test, I agree that the demands associated with my own D’s AP courses (for example) tend to parallel college academics more than any of the current SAT tests. Thus, one could argue, Why <em>shouldn’t</em> the performance in these be included as admissions criteria, when available?</p>
<p>My daughter attends a HS that does not offer AP courses. There is a program that allows students in 11th and 12th grades to take classes at a nearby university. I assume these courses are transferable when the student graduates from HS. Do you think adcom view these courses/grades the same as AP test grades?</p>
<p>
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<p>adcoms might view both paths as equally indicative of a challenging curriculum. But you might want to consider having your daughter take the corresponding AP exam (when there is one) at the end of her college courses to increase the odds of getting credit. It’s only a few extra hours of looking over an AP review book once you’ve taken the college course. Some colleges (Harvard is one) will give AP credit, but no credit for college courses taken as a high school student.</p>
<p>AP courses apparently are not always the best quality course offered. My S will have taken 4 2-semester APs by grad, not nearly all that are offered here. S is particularly strong in History/Govt etc. But his outstanding H teacher told him NOT to take AP Govt as, in our school, it happens to be one of those courses “taught to the test.” He felt it would offer nothing to S, who is a “thinker” in these fields. So S is now taking Honors Govt instead.</p>
<p>Tututaxi, it is unfortunate, but, unless your local college is known to the adcoms as one of sufficient rigor, I doubt she’ll get as much a bump from the courses. The problem is that college quality varies so widely. </p>
<p>Regarding transfer of credits, it is impossible to generalize. Some colleges will take no college credits that were also used for HS credit. Some will take any credits from an accredited college. Some make individual decisions. If credit acceptance will be a factor in choosing a school, you might want to cruise some web sites and correspond with the evaluating officials.</p>
<p>jmmom, I agree that educators are sometimes frustrated by the need to teach to the test. And some courses, like Euro history, are notorious for trying to cover so much material in such a short time that they lose much of the integrative value the course might otherwise have. It is especially bad here in the Northeast, as we start a full month later than some other districts. And AP exams take place 4-5 weeks before the normal end of the school year for some kids.</p>
<p>That said, the school accountability movement (no child left behind…) is replete with teach to the test. Heck, Bush’s home state, Texas, invented the approach. In the 1990s, Texas showed remarkable improvement in TAAS scores, which the state (and George) trumpeted as proof of success of the carrot/stick of testing. It was curious, then, when NAEP testing results were released a few years later showing no progress. It seems teaching to the test increased test scores, but did not increase education. Stay tuned.</p>
<p>tututaxi:</p>
<p>I’ve said it before, credit and placement are two different things. Many colleges will offer credit for an appropriate score (3, 4, 5 depending on both the college and the department) on specific AP exams (not all, by any means, and it varies according to the college). On this basis, some will permit students to take Advanced (sophomore) Standing, thus reducing time to graduation. Others will not permit students to do so, no matter how many AP credits they come in with. Whether or not students receive credit, they will often be allowed to place into a more advanced level in the field. So having good AP scores is useful in that context. Another benefit of AP courses is that they usually cover in one year what colleges cover in one semester. So high school students are introduced to college-level material at a more leisurely pace, with a lot more support than they would get from the college prof (this, of course, can create a distorted impression of the difficulty of college courses).</p>
<p>Adcoms and departments have different views of the value of AP courses. For example, while many will give full or partial credit for AP-European history, history departments in general take a dim view of the shallowness of the course, as newmassdad described, and will not exempt a student wishing to major in history from taking the introductory course as a result. I also believe that AP-Economics is not well regarded by most departments, and so is AP-Government. Colleges usually have a list on their website that shows which AP will garner credit (and how much credit). Looking at a few is very instructive.</p>
<p>Whether or not a student will wish to take the Advanced Standing option or merely place into a more advanced class, I do believe that AP scores should be an important factor in admissions, wherever they are available. APs are much better gauges than SAT of student’s college-preparedness; they are the nearest thing we have for comparing apples with apples; AP scores are also a national yardstick that validates course grades. Without the scores, it is impossible to compare an A in an AP from Podunk High from an A (or, for that matter, a B) from a NE prep school.</p>
<p>Regarding college course credits: Newmassdad is correct. Adcoms are leery of giving credit for courses taken at colleges whose quality is unknown. And some just refuse to give credit for their own courses taken while in high school (this will be the case for my S). Again, they will still permit students to place into more advanced courses, but it won’t reduce the tuition bill. In some states, notably CA, there is a recognized system for transferring cc credits taken in high school into the UCs; I assume that is because transferring from ccs into the UCs is a common practice there.</p>
<p>At a glance it appears that the states with high cut-off for PSAT did well in AP scores as well.</p>
<p>My son’s HS has a strong AP program, good scores. Many students use these to earn advanced standing at the state schools in Ohio. They are viewed as a way of saving money ($82 vs. the cost of a course at OSU).</p>
<p>Concerned-D:</p>
<p>According to some of the kid’s threads, it does not appear that all adcoms request AP test scores, but they do look at the all-important Strength of Schedule, which taking AP/IB courses is one way to establish the strength.</p>
<p>btw:<br>
it’s important to understand the academic bias (if any) of the researchers, particularly those involved in public policy in our blue state, particularly from the same researcher that was involved in convincing CB to invent the “new” SAT, by repackaging the old…</p>
<p>Another link concerning the point system… </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A64014-2005Jan10?language=printer[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A64014-2005Jan10?language=printer</a></p>
<p>When I helped my D research colleges, I found that state unis were much more likely to grant actual credit for AP courses than top ranked private colleges. Indeed, many state unis have generous transfer policies for college and jr college courses taken while in HS. As Marite said, you really must look at specific colleges to address these questions. And policies are in a state of flux.</p>
<p>Historically, some APs were viewed as much more solid than others. Generally, the A list has been Chem, Bio, Physics (either), Math (either). In the middle have been languages and the Histories. At the bottom have been tests like the econs, environmental history, music theory, psych etc.</p>
<p>But, recently, science faculty have been pushing back. For one thing, sciences, especially Bio, are moving so fast that it is difficult to keep an AP curriculum up to date. Further, the lab component in the sciences is far inferior to what a kid would find in a college lab. So, some schools have developed a separate track for AP kids. For instance, at U. Chicago, if one wants to pursue a science concentration, a kid with a 5 in AP Bio would take a 2 quarter “AP 5” bio course. The school recommends Honors frosh chem for anywone who received a 5 on the AP or passed a qualifiying exam, and in chem you then do not get any AP credit. In physics, for 5’s, they will make an individual determination regarding the need to take the lab portion of the regular college course.</p>
<p>newmassdad - Yes, the “teach to the test” phenom is certainly not limited to AP. It’s a shame whenever it occurs and especially frustrating in an AP situation which, one would think, would be an “enriching” experience.</p>
<p>Sidebar re NCLBehind (another thread, for sure): Here in Maine we preceded it with Learning Results. Theoretically, much better because no high-stakes tests involved. Measurement is supposed to be a combo of milestones achieved over all 12 yrs, portfolio-type assessments, etc. Has created its own set of unbelievable headaches, bureaucratic costs, lost teacher time - spent instead developing “measurement rubrics” etc.</p>
<p>bluebayou - Strength of schedule is certainly the prime (only?) reason I encouraged my S in his desire to do several AP courses. Didn’t and still dont’ really care what he scores on AP test. Would be great for him to avoid “boring” intro courses at college, but (a) not all of them are boring and (b) as others have posted, not all college depts. allow that.</p>
<p>Thanks for the explanation/differentiation of AP credit and college placement. At this particular time Im more concern about Ds transcript looking inadequate or weak because it wont show AP classes. Im afraid the adcoms wont know that AP classes arent offer in her rural public HS.</p>
<p>Im still debating the pros and cons of the Running Start program. I think the main benefit might be a way to show the adcoms that she can do reasonably well in a class with university students, even if it means all she receives is advanced-course placement. The university that is part of Ds HS Running Start is public and the 2nd largest in our state. </p>
<p>Again, thanks for helping me gain some clarity on this issue.</p>
<p>tututaxi - My understanding of the key thing adcoms are looking for is “strength of schedule” in relation to what is offered at your D’s school. So [ul][<em>]do they have Honors courses and is she taking them?[</em>]does D’s school append a school profile when it sends students’ transcripts, recs, counselor eval to colleges? This profile can serve the purpose, if included, of helping adcom see how your D has challenged herself wrt what was available.[li]would she need to/want to do the Running Start precisely for this strength of schedule factor[/ul]</p>[/li]
<p>Adcoms do know that not all schools offer AP, or as many APs as others, and should know that they are not offered at your D’s school. Make sure that this is somehow conveyed in her apps. The counselor eval form also, of course, includes qx on how strong a schedule D has taken wrt offerings.</p>
<p>Finally, altho I didn’t use it for S, I did find - in helping gS - that some(many?most?all?) colleges Admissions Counselors are available and helpful. It seems to me it would be a good idea for you to contact one or two, from colleges likely of interest to your D, and discuss how they would view this “Running Start” vs. other options. This can be done (and I did it) totally anonymously if that is more comfortable.</p>
<p>Now, really finally, how good do you think the Guidance Counselor is at Ds HS? Can they be of help to you in making this decision?</p>