<p>I disagree that new music has not found an audience. The standard for whether music is accepted or not is not whether it makes it onto a major orchestra subscription series. Music is not a zero sum game. It is not Shostakovich vs. the Romantics. We can like it all, which I do. I may prefer Bartok over Spohr, but I love Mozart, Bach, Schubert and many others.</p>
<p>I am not so certain of that, look at how, for example, the NY Philharmonic programs new music, and the programs (with some exceptions) are combining new pieces with existing orchestral repertoire, and one thing you will notice is they almost never schedule the new piece for after the intermission…and the programs where they do play entirely new music, their so callled “contact” series, they do these in places like symphony space and the like because it doesn’t have drawing power to make sufficient audience for Avery Fisher…</p>
<p>I am not saying we don’t need new music, we do, because I think playing the old warhorses is not a way forward, but I also think we need composers and those teaching them to realize, especially in a day and age when people’s exposure to ‘traditional’ symphonic music is diminished compared to prior generations, that reaching the audience is critical and writing music that pleases those capable of understanding it from a structural basis only is going to have problems. Pop music is something that often is written entirely to hit the emotions, it is full of ‘musical hooks’ and such that make it pleasing (not going to mention was passed for concerts these days), and I am not suggesting that is what composers should go for, but they need to keep in mind that to people raised on that kind of music, expect that kind of experience, walking into an atonal piece that is totally outside traditional harmonic form is not going to react well, and unfortunately, you are talking a significant percentage of the potential audience. Atonal itself as I am defining it has nothing to do with the underlying key, Beethoven in his late string quartets was writing in effect 12 tone music, his pieces used multiple keys and didn’t return back to the original key the way music of his time did, but it still had the melodic and harmonic center; the problem with modern music IMO is that it got rid of the standard tonal system and it went heavily into dissonant/strange chord patterns, the ones that became all so common, and the two of them struck a wrong chord with people (and obviously, that is my opinion only, I won’t claim to be even an amateur when it comes to music).</p>
<p>There was a statement about Mozart that I find illuminating in this discussion, and I think it is apt. Somewhere there is either a writing or a statement he said his goal in writing music was to write something that the audience could enjoy, could listen to with pleasure, yet after they would listen to it would also resonate deeper, to make them wonder about the piece, how it was written and what he was trying to say, and I think that might not be a bad way to look at music.</p>
<p>My local symphony has the same issue with some new pieces. It was said that Haydn (whether it true or not I don’t know) wrote so many symphonies because the audiences wanted siomething new every time. Unfortunately, orchestra audiences of today want mainly the warhorses as you say.</p>
<p>I guess I can enjoy the purely academic more than some. I own Gunther Schuller’s 2nd string quartet on vinyl (played by the Emerson SQ). Now that is academic. Cheers.</p>
<p>The Cleveland Orchestra- usually under its guest conductors- does play newer pieces frequently, but also doesn’t put them after the intermission. One of the best programs I have ever heard was under the baton of Marin Alsop: Barber’s Symphony No.1, Bernstein’s Serenade (after Plato’s Symposium) for the first half and Saint-Sa</p>
<p>That’s a pretty broad statement to make about new music! In every time period, there’s good music and then some that’s not as effective. Of course, the music that survives is mainly good so, in hindsight, it’s easy to try and compare everything to Beethoven when that’s not a very realistic model. There are so many great things happening in the composition world today* and there are definitely composers who want to connect with audiences… in fact, for me the most rewarding part of being a composer is the ability to share what I hear with others. </p>
<p>New Music Box’s interview this month was with John Harbison and one of the things he discussed was how audiences play a part in new works; it was kind of along the same lines. There’s nothing wrong with disliking some music, but you also have to keep an open mind. 
</p>
<ul>
<li>New music ensembles; also, stylistically… modern music doesn’t necessarily imply dodecaphonic anymore.</li>
</ul>
<p>musicprint, I agree with you. I am not a musician at all, I just know what I like. And I don’t want to study up before a concert, I want to be swept away and feel the emotion of the piece.</p>
<p>
Sturgeon’s Law in action.</p>
<p>Sturgeon’s Law applied 200 years ago as well, but filtered over time it means that now we only hear the 10% that was any good.</p>
<p>Just when you thought art song was dead. D has worked directly with John Musto, Jake Heggie and John Harbison (during a summer YAP). These composers are enthusiastic about composing absolutely gorgeous music for singers and there’s nothing like being coached by the source. Modern composers are an excellent source for recital rep .They especially love the mezzo voice. (God Bless 'em.)</p>
<p>BTW…Song Fest has six full fellowships available to musicians (singers and pianists) who are talented and passionate about art song. Live auditions are in Jan and Feb and required for the fellowships. This segment of the program is very small and appropriate to recent grads and grad students.</p>
<p>Great Art Song Festival held every other year at Baldwin-Wallace conservatory. Applicants from all over the world for singers and pianists! I wish we’d see more of these that would be reserved for younger singers since this is eminently suitable repertoire.</p>
<p>^ Roger Vignoles coaches at that program (B-W). He is fantastic, especially for Schubert. And hey…isn’t this thread supposed to be a depressing reality check. Shouldnt we stop listing fantastic opportunities? :)</p>
<p>Thank you so much for all the info. My D is applying to grad schools in voice and composition and we did not know all your information. </p>
<p>Usually, I do not let her apply to summer festivals that charge a lot of money. I usually say I am already paying for all your lessons in college. I usually think it isn’t anything to go to these summer festivals when they cost so much–is it that competitive? Especially when most of them are basically just group lessons. I always think I could pay for the best private lessons for the price of these festivals, when each week they are often only getting one private lesson, if at all.</p>
<p>After I read your article to my D, she said that is why she is also studying composition. We also started joking how I, the mother, would be happy to have her living with me until she was 37.</p>
<p>Another thing, everyone says they will just be a teacher. There is a similar problem with too many teachers. Maybe that is part of the problem with too many voice students–it is a churning process.</p>
<p>Summer programs are expensive and the experience varies from program to program. D was only interested in programs that had one on one coachings and lessons. You need to shop for them just as you would shop any school. Who is teaching there? What scholarships or fellowships are available? You would also be surprised how many travel grants might be available through local arts programs. D has also performed recitals as fund raisers. Her last experience was fully funded and previous to that she generally received scholarships covering 30-50%. Money has always been an issue in our family and I think that our own scraping and scrambling has taught her well.</p>
<p>Summer Music programs are like anything in music education, there are the good, the bad and the <em>eh</em>, and it can be hard to discern the wheat from the chaff. There are summer music programs that sell themselves as being a ‘high level, intensive musical experience’ that in direct experience are nothing like that, the kids treat it like goof off time, and it seems to exist to provide employment for the people running it rather then an intense experience…(and no, I am not talking about places like Interlochen and Greenwood that combine a ‘summer camp experience’ ie. living in cabins, swimming and color wars with music, those are excellent program in their own right). This type IMO is a waste of time and money, you have kids goofing off and people running it who don’t care. In that case, the money would prob be better spent on private lessons with a high level teacher. </p>
<p>But there are also some really good programs that provide a lot, and there are ones like this that probably provide good financial aid, the problem is going to be finding them. One of the problems with rating music programs is what works for one student may not work for another, one person might describe the teachers at program X as ‘fantastic’ and someone else says they are schlubs so it takes getting feedback from many people, looking at the faculty and the cost, and coming to a decision.</p>
<p>D’s undergrad teacher gave her good advice when she told her not to bother with summer programs or YAPS until she was ready to A) go after a specific role or high level experience B) be good enough to qualify for a scholarship. You don’t want to pay tons of money to finance a better qualified singers summer. You are better off staying at home, taking private lessons and coachings and working at a summer job. I imagine this applies to instrumentalists as well.</p>
<p>For all musicians, I would at least recommend having a back-up ready. My good friend is a triple major right now at Indiana in violin performance, music education, and math. She’s a wonderful musician; was first chair in all-state orchestra, meaning she was ranked the best in the state. Even good people need backup plans, and I feel many singers don’t have this. </p>
<p>I’ve personally seen a lot of aspiring performers have romanticized this dream of being on broadway and such, to a point that they ignore sensible advice saying that they won’t let other people bring them down, and that they know they are meant to be a star. There’s too many people who all think they are good, and many need a reality check. Sure, one might be the best at their school, but there are so many high schools out there. Maybe there needs to be an equalizer to at least give kids an idea of where they stand. SAT for vocal performance, including an audition and written test?</p>
<p>In theory there would be checks and balances along the way, kids seeing the reality and switching focus, but it is very easy to get into an insulated bubble growing up, being a big fish in a small pond, and getting through high school thinking they will be the next big thing, then hitting the wall.</p>
<p>In theory the audition process is a check and balance. The problem there is there are a lot of music programs out there at the college level, it is staggering to me given the odds of making it how many programs there are and how much ‘product’ they turn out. Every year I hear about new programs and bodies have to fill those programs and as a result many of them aren’t very selective, the kid goes there, and then when they get out, realize it may have been nothing more then a delusion. It is why more then a few people on here recommend that if a kid seems to have talent to get them evaluated to see what reality is, even if you love the local teacher who says your kid ‘has it’, that may not reflect reality. I am speaking from experience here with my own child, my spouse and I had zero knowledge of music other then knowing it was tough, we didn’t know the level out there, thought his teacher at the time was top level, thought he was doing great, and then when we got glimpses of reality, when he got evaluated by a teacher in a top program, it was culture shock, big time (my S came out of that evaluation wiped out, realizing the bad habits he had from his then current teacher, who had ignored a lot, were many; in his case the teacher thought they were fixable if he worked hard…). </p>
<p>People aren’t just throwing around a common saw for nothing when they say “if you can see yourself doing anything other then music, it may be better to do the other thing”, it is the truth. There are a lot of things in this world where you can find your passion later rather then sooner and bloom, people go into college wanting to be a doctor and end up as a financial analyst or a therapist, and you can do that, but with formal music it just doesn’t work like that, you don’t wake up at 18 thinking you want to be a concert Pianist after fooling around on a keyboard, it doesn’t work like that, ‘natural talent’ and all isn’t enough. </p>
<p>I know for me it is hard when I see someone who so earnestly seems to want to go into music, who has some sort of desire, and it isn’t easy to find a way to dampen some of the enthusiasm or tell of the reality that is out there. People on here and elsewhere try to be nice, to give alternative paths and so forth, but the reality is that even for the very tippy top of the top level students it is rough sledding and for people below that, it gets exponentially harder the lower the relative level of the student is. Getting into a non auditioned music program might seem like a way into becoming a ‘serious’ musician who otherwise couldn’t get into auditioned ones (at varying levels), or getting into an auditioned program at “U of Anywhere” where the competition isn’t fierce, what are the odds of bringing yourself up to a higher level or more importantly knowing that you are already at the back end of the curve or maybe even solidly in the middle, and know the road to music kind of begins and ends at the extreme right hand side of the curve? And how do you know where you are when you get admitted to a program where many of the students are where you are? More and more is what it seems to boil down to is if at least you don’t have the potential to get into a highly competitive program it is highly unlikely you will get far in music. </p>
<p>Yes, music students go to all kinds of programs and succeed, but from what I have seen the kids who went to less competitive programs had the potential to get into one of the top level programs but ended up going to another program because it fit them better or in a lot of cases, financially made more sense. It is different being accepted to an NEC or CIM level program and choosing to go to a ‘good’ music program on a scholarship, then it is to go to the ‘good’ program because that is where you got in (and ‘good’ here is a relative term, it is different if you go to a program that is only slightly less competitive then NEC et al because you didn’t get into those programs, or getting into a program several tiers down from the top because that is all you can get admitted to).</p>
<p>So I’ve read most of the posts on the nfcs forum, and most of these also. Well, I can’t remember my login for the other forum, so I’ll ask my questions here. </p>
<p>So we’re talking about the scary reality for singers, and I’m sure lots of us understand that. I’ve never been of the belief that one day I’ll be rich, living in a mansion with fancy things off of a singing career. I don’t dream of being an international superstar, I just want to sing for the rest of my life, because it’s what makes me happy, and it’s who I am, and I know that if I didn’t study, and strive for my dream that I’d always wonder “what if”. I couldn’t possibly be happy. I’m content with not making as much money as my parents if I’m pursuing a dream. </p>
<p>I guess what I don’t see is why so many people feel less people should be educated, or why so many people (mostly on the other forum) feel that singers should double major. I’ve always just thought - well, if it doesn’t work out, I’ll still do fine for myself. I consider myself a fairly smart person with lots of valuable skills. I believe that college isn’t necessarily trade school - lots of people get work outside of their fields. It is hard for me to understand why it is felt that singers are in such a bad position after graduation. The BM has some academic components, and studying music, you develop a strong work ethic. I’d hope to perform for a while of course, like everyone, but I also just figured you get a “day job” or two, do some teaching (I’d love to teach privately, K-12, and/or college level one day), church jobs, and make ends meet. And if performing isn’t really working out, you could try and work your way up in whatever “day job” you might have. Then there is also the second graduate degree in some other field (assuming singer pursues their graduate degree within a couple years after their BM). </p>
<p>I don’t know if I just asked a question or not. I’m just trying to condense my thoughts on the subject. Say we understand the realities (or at least think we do), but we still want to pursue our dreams. So, what’s the problem after that? If this makes sense…?</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong in pursuing your passion.( And personally, I don’t think a double major is the best idea.) Most of the caviats I have posted have to do with incurring large amounts of debt in the pursuit of that passion. You would be surprised how many very talented but naive singers incur upwards of over $100,000 in debt by the time they finish their BM and are shocked how expensive just auditioning for grad school is. Keep your eye on the prize, but understand how very competitive and expensive it is. Generally, it’s the" realistic" singers who do well.
Also—advice appropriate for instrumentalists, does not necessarily apply to singers. Vocal education is a whole different animal.</p>
<p>—forgot to add one difference! For example, teaching K-12 is very tough on a singers voice. Even teaching too many private lessons can take its toll. And make sure that the job you get to subsidize your career will let you off for weeks at a time to pursue auditions or attend rehearsals.</p>