<p>Haha, why am I reading this? I cannot sing, nor play an instrument, I do not come from a musical family, I don’t even know anyone taking on such a career path. It’s 1 am here and I found myself reading this entire thread…</p>
<p>Musicprnt, I am a little taken by surprise by one of your comments (keep in mind that I am the naive highs school student that you’re probably directing those comments to, haha). But, why would someone apply to top level conservatories if they had no interest attending them? Why waste precious money? If you’re a really practical singer who’s looking for an undergrad program that will not drown you in debt, then why bother even auditioning for these schools?
And here’s another thought I’m throwing out in repsonse to this forum and to comments in general on this thread and on nfcs. So I hear a lot that you get your voice evaluated to see how you stack up against the competition. That’s all well and good. But, isn’t the voice bound to unpredictable changes, especially before undergrad? What if someone who didn’t look like they had much potential just blossomed during undergrad and grad school? I feel like I might get my voice evaluated, but maybe not because things could change. And also, it sounds like it takes a lot of drive and motivation to be a successful opera singer. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think a lot of people with drive and motivation would be willing to completely give up on something just because a few people say they don’t “have it.” The point of having motivation and drive is so that you can recover from less than perfect evaluations, auditions, performances, etc and know that there is always tomorrow. To me, there’s no point in having a “never give up” attitude if I listen to some people on here and give up just because somebody (who may or may not be correct) says I don’t have a chance (please, I do not mean to offend anyone. I just thought it worthy to note this contradiction). I may sound like the typical teenager with stars in his eyes, but I’d be doubtful of a good or bad evalutation of my voice (especially at this point).</p>
<p>Yoshi,
Have you ever seen the early rounds of American Idol? That’s why you should have your voice evaluated in some way- whether it’s auditioning and attending summer programs, by a reputable voice teacher, etc. </p>
<p>We’ve all seen people on the early rounds of AI who are awful, but are convinced they’re great and say they will keep trying no matter what the judges say. Of course a voice can change and develop over time, but you will be competing against students who already have a very high level of development. If someone is 18 and auditioning for vocal performance programs and can’t sing in tune (not saying this is you) it’s unlikely they’ll be an opera singer.</p>
<p>Prefect, ok, I guess you are right. And I have gotten my voice evaluated before, just not from someone from like a university teacher. I guess “evaulated” meant something different to me. When I heard that, I thought that meant going to see some teacher and having maybe an hour lesson with him/her and then have him/her tell you if you’re good enough to be an opera singer just based on that.</p>
<p>Yoshi, most of the audition panel at these schools are very attuned to hearing the potential in young voices. So even if a student had not had “tons” of lessons, etc they can hear “potential”.</p>
<p>Just saying, no student should ever be going into see a teacher for evaluation ( not at this level!) asking if they " are good enough to be an opera singer" and any teacher who would answer that- assuming that the student is of decent quality and has had some training- shouldn’t be believed.
Yoshi, no one here knows your voice and even those of us who have kids in top tier schools can’t predict the future for them. Spend the next 10 months with a good teacher and working on good, solid Bel Canto technique. At your age you should be singing from the 24 Italian Songs and art songs in other languages. Leave the idea of arias and opera on the shelf for later. Take piano and music theory. Next year, you’ll submit your audition materials and see where life takes you. Seriously, you’re going to worry yourself into a corner where singing won’t be fun anymore. Enjoy this year, do your school musical if appropriate ( next year it might be too much with college audition season), seek out opportunities to perform in your area- have fun. It will fall into place, I promise you!</p>
<p>Thank you, I needed to hear that, MezzoMamma. And yes, I am pretty much doing everything that you just said above. It’s just after spending some time on this forum and on nfcs, one can get a little overwhelmed and stressed out haha. And yes, I do very much enjoy singing, and I’m not looking to take any of the fun out of it. I will be in my school musical (probably not a lead part because my director chose to do a musical with all tenor parts and I’m a bass, grrrr). And yes, I realize that I need to just keep my options open and not get trapped in a tunnel vision. Thank you!</p>
<p>As a singer who found her interest in voice after graduating from college, then working her way through a second BA after being miserable in her chosen field, MA in Vocal Pedagogy at a local commuter state college, then a long career as a professional singer with choral singing: Chicago Symphony Chorus, small early music ensembles, church choirs, training as a cantor in Catholic church, high holidays choirs at Synagogues, two children, long nights out singing, back issues holding music and standing for long periods, missing my family when everyone else was home resting, let’s see what else has happened to me? I started teaching music K-8, uncertified, worked my way up through Orff-Schulwerk training, community music school teaching, etc. What am I doing now? Teaching music at that same commuter college! Not making much money, but I have benefits! I can participate with other colleagues on Faculty recitals, I still cantor a couple of times a month. Would I ever tell any one of my students it’s not worth pursuing your passion? No, but I would say don’t marry a singer if you are one! Luckily my husband has had a steady job all these years and between the two of us we’ve been able to make ends meet. Are my children interested in pursuing music as a career after years of piano lessons, cello lessons, master classes, etc? No! I think it was always my passion and no one can say just because a school accepts students who aren’t in the top percentage that what they love to do is not “worth” pursuing. What do you do that is so important that you can dismiss people who aren’t “good” enough at something? I never entered a competition, I have sung all of these years because I love to make music. I touch the hearts of the people who hear me sing, and it brings me great joy. I can look back and remember George Solti standing in front of me conducting “Dei Meistersinger”, I can remember going to Berlin with some of the finest singers in the world and being on stage with them singing Boulez’ “Moses and Aaron” conducted by the composer and having my own special solo parts that were sung “sprechstimme”. I understand your point that it’s expensive, yes, of course, but there are a lot of singers out there who sing professionally who never did YAPs or Yale or Oberlin, or any of that stuff. They went to music school, they graduated, they persevered and got their masters in voice, they continue to sing in professional choirs or opera choruses, they teach voice or teach piano out of their homes or at community music schools. And they still love it! Those are all my friends! Vocemom</p>
<p>Sorry that was in response to Musicprint’s comments way back at the beginning of the thread!</p>
<p>Great post, vocemom!</p>
<p>Vocemom-</p>
<p>While I respect what you are saying and honor your path and I fully agree kids should pursue their dreams, I think they need a reality check that if they are going to go into music they need to see the cold, hard reality of it and realize not only is it difficult to pursue but getting much, much harder. Among other things, the kind of regional groups, the professional and semi professional groups that singers and instrumentalists could rely on to be part of cobbling together a career, have shrank tremendously. The Boston Opera just went under, the NYC Opera is dying, and a lot of other smaller programs are struggling to survive, and these were the kind of groups where musicians and singers could find employment and with teaching make a living. It also depends on family circumstances, someone who is married with a spouse whose income and benefits provide stability can do music for whatever they make from it and be okay. </p>
<p>The other factor is I have met and heard plenty of stories of those who did what you describe, they went into music by alternative paths, they ended up being able to pursue music by cobbling together a living, and that is no myth. However, most of the people who did so started out a while ago, 20 or 30 years ago, and it was a different world back then musically. In instrumental music the level of playing and competition has shot up exponentially from where it was 20 or 30 years ago, 30 years ago, as with one of my son’s earlier teacher’s, you could play an instrument (in this case, violin), as ‘a hobby’ and ‘get serious’ in college, the person in question got into one of the better conservatories probably on potential, and if she did that today they would not be able to do that (and then after graduation they got into a pretty high level orchestra), which again given the level that is out there they likely wouldn’t have made it. I realize vocal music is different, that the voices develop later and so forth, but the competition there is incredibly fierce, too.</p>
<p>The other factor is that where the kind of groups you are mentioning, regional choral or instrumental groups, that they are seeing higher and higher levels among those who apply because even kids with top level talent and training are scrambling to find jobs and gigs. </p>
<p>Again, I respect your post and I think this and other threads that talk about how someone can make it in music, put together a career or at least continue doing music, is valuable, but there are also a lot of kids who aren’t thinking along those lines, they think they can major in violin at a non audition school and have a shot at getting into let’s say the Chicago symphony based on that, and that is a lotto type longshot, or a soprano who thinks she is going to get into the Met chorus coming out of the program at Podunk U, and it is just isn’t likely and is getting more and more unlikely, again because of the level of competition out there.</p>
<p>If someone is going to pursue music as a vocation and avocation, they need to realize what they are heading into and the reality and how hard it is, whether singer or instrumentalist. I have a friend, a professional musician, who has had a pretty successful run as a musician, he plays in the pits of big Broadway musicals, he does recording sessions of all kinds, and has done well for himself, but if you look at his path and then look at, for example, that Broadway musicals are cutting the size of the orchestras and have been trying for years to use recorded music or synthesizers and get rid of live musicians entirely, you can see I suspect what I mean, that what he did, his example, might not be possible in the not so distant future.</p>
<p>As far as who am I to be telling kids not to pursue their dreams, I am not, I am simply saying what the reality is out there, that making it in music has never been easy and these days it isn’t getting any easier, and based on what I have seen at the student level it is only going to get much more competitive and also job opportunities and career opportunities are probably going to be tighter. At the very least, what I write hopefully will make the kid take a look at what they want to do and if they sit back and say “I don’t care how hard it is, I am going to make a run at doing something in music”, I would applaud them, and if they told me to my face “#&#&# you, I am going to go after it” I would shake their hand and wish them luck, because they thought about it. </p>
<p>My mantra isn’t not to go into music, that is for the kids themselves to decide, my mantra is if you decide to go into it, do so because you have the passion and are willing to make the sacrifices it takes and that as a career path, specifically if you aren’t at the top level, is going to be an arduous one, much harder then the incredibly difficult path even the best of the best take.</p>
<p>This weekend I had an interesting discussion with someone in the music industry. He has one of the more successful recording studios here in Los Angeles. More gold and platinum records than you can count. But business right now is SLOW. He said he was thinking about putting cards up at the local performing arts school to attract students who want their audition CD’s done professionally. As he said: “The only real growth right now in the music business is in music students.” ouch</p>
<p>I do have an issue with what musicprnt calls “podunk U”. That attitude might apply to instrumentalists, who are ready to hit the ground running after their undergrad studies. But, even today, many accomplished singers who go on to international careers are starting out at undergrad programs from relatively obscure state schools rather than elite, expensive conservatories. Stephanie Blythe ,Lawrence Brownlee,Joyce Didonato, Nathan Gunn, Matthew Polenzani, these singers all went to State schools as undergrads. More importantly state schools tend to produce relatively debt free singers who can use their funds to pursue audition trips, international YAPS, and critical post graduate studies. From what my D discovered on her grad school journey was that the audition panels really didn’t give a hoot as to where you went as opposed to how well you sang.</p>
<p>I am not a vocalist, but my situation as music student, and a non-traditional one at that, is quite relevant – so I just wanted to add my .02.</p>
<p>Firstly…I know more musicians than I can count who have hailed from “Podunk U” and some other lesser known university music programs who have achieved a great deal of success, even on an international level. Some are in their 20’s still. You may not know of them because, let’s be honest – there are way too many professional musicians functioning today than anyone can keep tabs on. 
And so many definitions of ‘professional’ and ‘successful’…it really is all up to the individual.</p>
<p>Also, as musicamusica just added, scanning biographies often leads to names of so-and-so state universities as the undergrad institutions of a great many pros across the field. My own teacher graduated with his BM and MM from a state university which is not particularly on the map for most aspiring string players, but achieved an artist diploma and DMA from a world-renowned name, and is a top prize winner in many international competitions. Even though I doubt anyone would recognise his name here, he regularly lands gigs which span continents. He has achieved quite a bit more – using his sheer determinism, networking ability and tireless effort and skill applied to his art – than most people I’ve come across who have attended far more “prestigious” institutions for their undergrad years…and he is barely 10 years my senior. The conductor of my orchestra has the same background, and has no want of work.</p>
<p>I do think the harsh reality checks and unsweetened bluntness offered on this forum (and others) is a necessity. If a hopeful student is bombarded with these and has the responsibility and awareness of mind to accept both sides of the coin, and, afterward, they STILL carry on with their dream…then I am of the belief that they just might have what it takes to find a way.</p>
<p>Personally, I would rather take the risk and work toward such a goal, than lay down my sword (or, uh – bow) in essence surrendering to an “easier” existence, simply because it is a known fact that things are challenging in the profession that calls to me the most. Yet there is no destination in life, other than the obvious…so the way I see it, students who embrace the warnings and reality checks might as well plunge head first into it and see what happens. Not everyone on the globe has the extreme good fortune to be able to make this kind of decision.</p>
<p>If we are able to be flexible (not all music that occurs in the world is of the classical persuasion, for one) and courageous, who knows what may come to pass. </p>
<p>Spending decades as a pro musician may or may not be in anyone’s cards…how can we foresee with any certainty anyone’s life course, with all its twists and turns…but, automatically predicting failure for any student who did not begin at 3 or has not had the extreme good fortune to be born into a family that can afford musical pre-colleges, expensive teachers, Juilliard etc…is a bit like automatically dashing the dreams of every youngster who dreams of becoming a veterinarian, ER nurse, astronaut, 4th grade English teacher, elite CIA operative and so on. For sure, being successful in any of the professions listed above (and a great many others) is just as difficult as ‘making it’ in music, if not more so. So difficult in fact, with such a huge risk of failure, why do people even work toward these at all?? Why does anyone even bother to do anything in life, anyway?
(for the record, I am not actually directing this at anyone in this thread).</p>
<p>The trick is to understand reality, be informed, and live. If the road becomes too bumpy…then I guess it’s a good thing we are not compelled to stick with our chosen college major until our dying day. As optimistic as I sound, I do know of more people who ended up in fields completely unrelated to their studies in college, than people who are making livings in their Major 20+ years later. It’s not just a music thing. Such is the intrigue of life!</p>
<p>Ultimately, <em>you</em> determine your own path in anything you do.</p>
<p>^^^“flexible…and courageous” I love that, that’s perfect, for aspiring musicians and all of us. Great post! I now have my new year’s resolution: I am going to be flexible and courageous.</p>
<p>The world is made up of people with heart who went to Podunk U, worked hard, and tried to make their dream come true. Sure, there are people who went to Prestigious Place and became superstars, but it’s those Podunk alums who are paying for the tickets, singing in the chorus, playing in the orchestra, bringing their kids and encouraging their students to come along, and who are the future of music.</p>
<p>We can’t all be professional football players, and we can respect their skills. But the NFL wouldn’t be able to exist without their fan base, many of whom played in high school or at, you guessed it, Podunk U. Many people toss a football around the backyard for fun. </p>
<p>Too bad we don’t do that with music any more.</p>
<p>Stephanie Blythe is 42, Brownlee is 39, Joyce Didonato- 43, Nathan Gunn- 42 and Polenzani will be 44. Things have changed considerably in the past 20 years and while no one is saying that a kid has to go to the most expensive school around, the fact remains that it is much more competitive now. 20 years ago no one had to submit pre-screenings, you didn’t routinely use the Internet to look up info on schools and the number of programs was a fraction of what it is now.
There are great singers performing in major houses around the world who come across much better in person- would they have even made it past pre-screenings?
I’ve seen VP students come out of programs in, shall we say, “not” 1st or 2nd (or even 3rd) tier schools who are pedaling as fast as they can in grad school because although they may have vocal talent, they are really behind the curve in required languages, theory and music history. Pay it now or pay it later, but sooner or later, the work has to be done.
I am in agreement with musicprnt: the proliferation in programs has resulted in more mediocre training and in more students spending money without being told the facts and honest truth about what to expect when they have that undergrad degree in their hands. It’s horrible to deal with kids who have gone through 4 years and then have no idea why they can’t get into the grad schools or even summer programs of their choice…</p>
<p>stradmom —that came across as just a tad condescending . First of all, lets agree to drop the all incompassing Podunk moniker.In the world of vocal performance, undergrad education at state schools produces many of the superstars and plenty of “ticket buyers” and plenty of “types who tried to make their dreams come true” come from “prestigious place”.<br>
Those Sopranos and Tenors from good state universities do more than just toss the football around the back yard</p>
<p>There are plenty of bad singers coming out of “prestigious place”. BAD singers with very marginal language skills and enormous amounts of debt. “No one is saying that you have to go to the most expensive school around”…just the most prestigious? Instead lets divide the voice departments or schools into good schools and bad schools. The podunk moniker implies state schools. I used the names of well known singers, I could just as well use the names of recent grads, but that would blow my cover. The proliferation of students has created a proliferation of music departments and a proliferation of talented students willing to pay far too much at bad schools and good schools. There have always been good and bad educational choices. In music and in every other field of study. My contention is that one shouldnt disparage the very good undergrad vp opportunities to be had at state schools.</p>
<p>musicamusica, i think you misunderstood my intent - sorry. I was trying to SUPPORT the people who went to Places Other Than Juilliard (since you seem to take issue with my wording).</p>
<p>My point was that in the sports world, there are amateurs playing the game for the love of it AND watching the superstars. I’m sad that in the music world the amateurs seem to have been left behind in part because of the financial problems with professional groups.</p>
<p>I apologize if my writing made you interpret my point completely in reverse.</p>
<p>Well, what I understood stradmom, is that you are implying that the undergrad singers out of state schools tend toward being amateurish.That the performers come out of famous schools and the audience comes out of state schools. There are several grad student singers at Curtis and the “very famous school” that did their undergrad work at state schools and D had more than one fellow student who went to that very famous place as an undergrad…and they are now trying to “fix” their voices.</p>
<p>I’m basically agreeing that it is more competitive. But massive amounts of debt incurred at a name brand conservatory will not help any singer. Get out of grad school with $180,000 in debt, just to encounter singers with the same skill sets, fantastic voices, but fewer money worries because they went the state school route as an undergrad. Who is going to afford to travel across country to that next audition, that next competition? D has plenty of friends in both positions. And she knows all too well that you still pay a teacher, coaches and accompanists continually after grad school—that is, unless you can no longer afford it.</p>