<p>I hardly ever recommend reading books, but crzy_commie you should read Ayn Rand’s Anthem, which proposes the exact ideas you are talking about and their results.</p>
<p>Frank Zappa once said that communism never works because people want to own stuff.</p>
<p>1) by making love you are essentially valuing one individual’s life over another when in reality their lives are equal (basis of my belief)
2) sex and “making love” are approaching synonymity in my generation; fewer people are waiting until they meet someone they “love”
3) once we achieve utopia, capitalism will look like a bunch of animals fighting for food; I’m skeptical about inherent evil in a human (some might be mentally ill but like someone said earlier that’s a different story) for IMO all people can understand what I say and follow the logic involved… if old don’t wish to change, try and teach the children of our generation about a more pristine form of love, about sharing, about equality
4) I heard Ayn Rand was some kind of ultra-capitalist…but I did hear that Atlas Shrugged was really good [so maybe I’ll consider reading them]
5) Ownership serves what purpose again? My belief is based on necessity and love; once the world achieves utopia, then we can consider as a united people about different things (travel, sports with no money incentive, pure fun that people only enjoyed as children].
6) People won’t spend their entire lives farming, just for a certain number of months or years then afterwards, they can go out and find a career</p>
<p>I personally am beginning to let go of personal possessions by valuing money only as a means to help other people. I will admit that it is hard and maybe I do want some stuff but I know that my future won’t go anywhere if it’s based on desire. In one of the few Nietzsche poems I’ve read (“My Happiness”), he discusses his acknowledgement of desire:</p>
<p>Since I grew tired of the chase
And search, I learned to find;
And since the wind blows in my face,
I sail with every wind.</p>
<p>My novice attempts at interpretation lead me to think that at some point in his life he grew tired of searching after something that doesn’t exist: happiness through material possession. I won’t try to interpret the last two lines because I’ll probably mess up. I just want to make sure that everyone realizes this reflection at a young age before dedicating themselves to the pointless pursuit of money.</p>
<p>So you want to get rid of ownership and property rights? </p>
<p>This is absurd. If I can’t own anything, i.e. my own body, it may be sacrificied at any time to serve a greater good determined by the “state.” Consider that a great famine strikes all the cute peaceful loving little farmers holding hands and singing kumbaya in your “utopia”. If there is not enough food to go around, can the state eliminate the sick and old so that the healthy may have enough with which to subsist?<br>
This is unnacceptable to me, and most rational people.</p>
<p>In addition to rand, I suggest Law Legislation and Liberty by Hayek.</p>
<p>why would you need or even want property rights/ownership in Utopia? If you don’t need the extra land and maybe other people could subsist off food grown on the land (obtained for free) it would make sense that you help those in need. The “state” can’t control you, for your actions have to come from within you. If you like owning land, making money, gathering things that supposedly represent some vague concept to the rest of society (honor, wealth, social status), then I can’t do anything about that. When you choose to not agree with my belief system, I respect that force will not change your perspective; bloodshed (revolution) wouldn’t be able to sustain any incipient government, based on people who wish to be in an alternate socioeconomic system. The utopia can emerge when people possibly like yourself can step back and wonder if what they do is what they want to do or what society expects of them. In Utopia, people will believe in love and care for others. Their joy will be derived from others’ joy. </p>
<p>Fear of death takes away from one’s enjoyment of life. Death is an inevitability. Accept that fact and from there begin to value life. If you have the ability to help yourself and others avoid death (and in doing so let them enjoy life to a greater degree), then help everyone. Put others in front of yourself. When everybody can do that, then there can be true peace because self-love is no longer needed in that the care/love is supplied by everyone else. If there is a famine, why go crazy? Do everything in your power to aid others. </p>
<p>We seem to notably disagree on the sick/old issue. The sick, old, hungry, and healthy ALL have the same right to life. If the weak falter, may the stronger give them a hand to steady them and supply them medicine to take away any pain. </p>
<p>And why are we all farmers again? Each person is not expected to live their entire existences on farms, instead for enough time to sustain your global community. I think “rational people” can understand that. (remember it’s interdependence so that the burden is not on the individual)</p>
<p>As a final note, I’d just like to iterate that no one can take your “body” away; whether you decide to devote your entity to a personal belief or not is completely up to you. Communism has failed before because of neglect towards that argument; the government can’t force you to do anything. Your belief should come before anything else in your life. Practice your own belief until the end and you shall be happy.</p>
<p>You totally misunderstood my points.</p>
<p>first of all, I’m the one saying everbody has a right to life, and to own their own body. I use the sick/old example as hyperbole to show where your ideas fail. The problem lies in saying no ownership exists…if you can’t see where I’m going from there, I don’t have the energy to explain it.</p>
<p>If you don’t own your body, why can’t I just kill you? Oh wait…is there a set of basic undeniable rights??</p>
<p>On second note, without a system such as capitalism, there is NO WAY to determine what your comrades need. Prices provide a way of determining what professions need more workers versus which are overstaffed. Prices tell us how much corn to grow. </p>
<p>As you say…" The utopia can emerge when people possibly like yourself can step back and wonder if what they do is what they want to do or what society expects of them"…well, you have choices. Society tells you what it expects of you through prices. You may not want to listen, but thats just your choice. In any case, capitalism provides a very able way of knowing what society wants.</p>
<p>The advancement of technology (yay capitalism) allows for more efficient farming - we can use land that otherwise is not arable, get more from the land, etc. </p>
<p>Specialization and division of labour allows for a tremendous increase in our standard of living. </p>
<p>Try reading Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations. If you don’t want to slog through that, try Heilbroner’s The Worldly Philosophers.</p>
<p>1) It looks like I should make a list of books to read 
2) Whoever said that you don’t own your body? I specifically stated that no one will force you to do anything. Your actions should come from within. If you really don’t want to help people, then don’t. I can only share my personal thoughts, never imposing them onto you. I have so much faith in my logic that I do believe that at some point in time man can create utopia. Why can’t that time be now?
3) “without a system such as capitalism there is NO WAY to determine what your comrades need”
i. comrades? I’ll assume you mean all people
ii. Let me help you understand what our “comrades” need: food, water, shelter. Attaching a price to what we need doesn’t really make sense to me. Ration out the resources we have, ensuring opportunity to life for all.
4) “capitalism provides a very able way of knowing what society wants.” ummm ok I concede to that point…but what I don’t understand is why capitalism doesn’t facilitate people’s needs…
I hate to say this but I could care less about people wanting to excuse their materialistic obsession by calling it economic efficiency; there are people out there dying by the minute and we worry about which car will go from 0-60 quickest. You may try to mock my ideology (farmers singing kumbaya) but capitalism is inherently evil. We all should agree to that. Evolution may love pitting humans against each other to reward the victor with genetic preservation, but when I see the hoplessness in the Poor’s eyes, I wonder where was I when their children died from social immaturity and neglect.
5) I guess you could kill me or anyone else but then who failed whom? At a young age, society must have cultivated evil within your heart. A (wo)man could not destroy Utopia in that an appropriate education would include love, not hatred. If I could have the opportunity to die for my beliefs then so be it. If my death/martyrdom could inspire an individual to truly feel my word, then may my death save the lives of others through her or him. My personal happiness is based on the happiness of others. Such selflessness could singlehandedly usher in a Utopian society.
6) Technological progress is very much feasible, if people will learn to pursue their interests not only in their own interests but in the interests of others. Money is not the sole factor in innovation. Advancements in medicine would continue to occur as people value that area over professional basketball.
7) A high standard of living shouldn’t mean much to anyone if not everyone gets to enjoy such status. Regardless of the average within various countries, it’s only an average, leaving people below and above, a fatal flaw of capitalism (perpetual division).</p>
<p>The only way that a Utopia could even be formed is if we lose our individuality. </p>
<p>You might ask, how did I figure that?</p>
<p>In order to have a Utopia, you must eliminate the human instinct of greed, ambition – all the negative aspects of humanity. Like I stated before, humans by their very nature alone are competitive and look forward to amassing SOMETHING greater than others – it is a search for a sense of superiority, if you will. </p>
<p>Even this statement proves that you have the intrinsic flaw of human superiority in you, thus making Utopia for you completely impossible:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Ideological superiority, so to speak.</p>
<p>You may dismiss my claims all you want – saying that human nature ** is ** able to put aside these things for the better good – and perhaps for a smaller setting, you would be able to construct an artificial utopia and use methods of enforcement that would ensure a Utopian nature. But a worldwide utopia or even a national one in the United States? Highly doubtful. </p>
<p>The systematic nature of the Utopia you propose concerns me greatly, as there is a loss for human individuality. If people must do things a set pattern in order to attain Utopia, then what do we become save mindless automatons? You cannot achieve utopia unless you force the idea on some, and if you do it for the “better good of man,” then I’d like to refer you to an Ayn Rand quote:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>In Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged,” she speaks of the motivation of the intelligent as being pure intellectual curiosity, the desire to accomplish great things, the need to excel, and what happens when “equal opportunity” is interpreted as “anyone should do what they want regardless of ability.” She traces the decline of a society as the capable slowly retreat into a society of their own where they can pursue their interests. It is very cumbersome to read in parts (she could have used Hemingway’s skills with athletic prose) but the ideas are very compelling. I believe it was written in 1935, but is still relevant. Also, Kurt Vonnegut’s “Harrison Bergeron” is a short story which also speaks to making everyone “equal.” My favorite character is the “Handicapper General.” Add those to your reading list! And keep thinking!</p>
<p>I was going to mention Harrison Bergeron.</p>
<p>I loved Vonnegut’s story, but I liked the movie a wee bit more.</p>
<p>* I am the Emperor! cried Harrison. Do you hear? I am the Emperor! Everybody must do what I say at once! He stamped his foot and the studio shook. *</p>
<p>Lovely story.</p>
<p>I think one of the quotes I liked from the movie was… something like:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yeah, my husband and I love Diana Moon Glompers. We are teachers, and my husband always says “The most unfair thing we can do in education is to treat everyone the same.” </p>
<p>I hope crazy has plenty of time to read this summer! And a well-stocked library!</p>
<p>Does anybody else get the points I have been trying to make? Just curious.</p>
<p>1) can’t we teach children at a young age to be selfless? let their ambition be channeled for the greater good instead of embracing the greedy aspect of humans.</p>
<p>2) tlaktan: has america basked too long in opulence to understand Utopia?</p>
<p>3) Of course, I feel ideological superiority. Why would I try and teach others about Utopia if I didn’t believe it to be better than our current system?</p>
<p>4) What’s more important: life itself or individuality? People can still continue expressing their personal talents but if they have a foundation of love for all, then why would they fight with each other? I’m guessing that’s the key difference between my ideas and that of Atlas Shrugged since I believe education should be first based on equal compassion.</p>
<p>5) Basically, my version of equality is giving all people the right to life. Simple enough. Let’s supply all people with the necessities.</p>
<p>6) At the moment I’m reading: The Communist Manifesto, Harry Potter, Wizard’s First Rule, The Chosen, Nietzsche’s Gay Science (book about existentialism not gay ppl), Insomnia, and some Buddhist book. Of course, it’ll take me forever all of them again because of my short attention span 
but I’ll add the recommended books.</p>
<p>crzy_commie, have you found any place in the world where the people share your ideals? Try to live in one of those places. I don’t know how accepting other social groups would be to have you live there, but aren’t many American Indian tribes, and some groups in Mexico thinking along your lines? There are probably more groups, that other people could add.</p>
<p>I say, go for it. Live in a different culture.</p>
<p>Read The Rule of St. Benedict–written about 530 AD. It is the basis for one of the few long-term (still going since then) utopian societies. When you read it, you’ll learn that without a common belief (religious or otherwise), any society will fall to chaos.
Also, you’ll see that human nature has not changed much in the last 1500 years. Try visiting a monastery to see how it works. Also, do some research on utopian communities; find out why they failed.</p>
<p>Regarding private property–what happened with the housing projects
that were supposed to shelter the poor? They were trashed by the occupants and had to be bombed/bulldozed. What is usually nicer–a public park/athletic club or a private one? When people have ownership, they take personal responsibility for maintaining property. (That’s why Habitat for Humanity is better than public housing projects). When “everyone” owns something, “no one” takes responsibility, because “everyone” thinks “someone else” is going to do it–and no one can benefit from their own personal good stewardship since everyone else is there trashing the place.</p>
<p>About families/babies: You must be joking. There is a biological/hormonal basis for parent/child bonding. No amount of training or education can change that. You’re not going to find people who would want to live as you propose… “Teaching children at a young age to be selfless”?–Good luck. You probably haven’t been around many toddlers. . . try working in a day care.<br>
You’ve done a lot of thinking, but you’ll learn more about human nature through your experiences out in the world. And with more experience, you’ll start to think differently.</p>
<p>dstark: as of yet, i’ve talked to quite a few people about what i think, (mostly people my age). While most of them agree that my logic is sound, they don’t really care enough to change the world. More than anything else in the world, that aspect alone depresses me. That some of the smartest kids I know feel that society’s faults are too great to reverse truly horrifies me. In the near future, my generation will be in control of the world. At that point, will evil and ignorance find a home in our mindsets too? </p>
<p>Also, I’ve really been thinking about going to a Buddhist monastery. Monks make up a very small group of people I respect. They are people who dedicated their lives entirely to their belief. If everyone could share the Buddhist thought that all lifes equal and practice their belief, then Utopia would emerge. However, I believe that I can practice my personal belief by presenting my thoughts to more people. Most of the kids on CC seem to represent the future leaders of America. If I could reach a certain percentage of them, then maybe we can try and decrease suffering throughout the world. I believe that I can truly help this world by helping others, by taking an active stance on the world’s misery. </p>
<p>atomom: I don’t want a private utopian society. How about the people outside that community? I care about those who agree and disagree with me. My love is for all. You can’t close off a group of people from the rest of the world. Worldwide Utopia is the solution. </p>
<p>“without a common belief (religious or otherwise), any society will fall to chaos.”</p>
<p>I already explained Utopia will emerge only when everyone can love everyone else equally. Universal love is the belief behind humanity’s unity. </p>
<p>Private Property: We have to set the example for the Poor. When we voluntarily spend time to make sure that all people are supplied their needs, the Poor will come to respect our gratitude. Private property clashes with my thought system in that people should not care about themselves so much as they should care about others. As a component of universal love, everyone would take responsibiliy for others. If no one else in the world cares about the consant pain in the world, then I will take up the responsibility as my own and try my best to reduce the heinous burden. </p>
<p>families/babies: There will always be people who take pleasure in playing with children. These people can act as the mothers/fathers of the young children, in time teaching them the virtues of love and compassion (not as a toddler but as a growing kid). Attachment is quite the possibility with that, but I will concede that young children need a parental figure.</p>
<p>crzy_commie, why do you have to change the world? You will never change the world. You can change YOUR WORLD.</p>
<p>Ever heard about the problem of grazing sheep on commons? No one has any incentive to conserve the area, so they all let their sheep overrun it. If they remove their sheep to let the grass grow, everyone else will still continue to let their sheep graze, so there would be no improvement. As said above, private property (in any society) will be more well-cared for than public property if left solely up to individual desires.</p>
<p>I’ve cared for little kids. It’s tough. Really tough. For you theoretical types, they really do follow the Kohlberg moral development line. All parents try to teach their kids to be selfless (or at least most of them do). Selfless - and to love school and not eat too much junk food and to clean up after themselves and to not bite other kids and…</p>
<p>aries - that’s funny, I was thinking about the sheep on the commons, too. And thanks for the reality check about “taking care of little kids.” As a primary teacher I know from personal experience that it is not about playing with children and enjoying it (“There will always be people who take pleasure in playing with children.”) but it is about caring enough to be stern and to hold children accountable, etc., etc. Sounds like you have it figured out! ;-)</p>