Interesting Thoughts/Questions

Parent Cafe
1

<p>To all the parents on CC:</p>

<p>As a teenager, my mind tends to wonder a lot and one of the few things I’ve ever been able to focus on is the multitude of poltical systems that exist in our world. Working mainly through observation, I came to the conclusion that the gaping contrast between the two following socioeconomic philosophies supplies the best insight into the people we are and the people we can be:</p>

<p>Capitalism: society sustained on greed/desire (that is supposedly a critical part to human nature) in which there will always be those who succeed and those who suffer</p>

<p>Communism: society in which all are equal and there is no one that wins or loses; everyone is treated in the same manner and is given equal opportunities</p>

<p>All of you at some point in your lives must have acknowledged this key division. As human beings, we supposedly have the ability to choose and these decisions make up human nature. Along the lines that people had made such a conscientious choice, why did we side with capitalism? In my own heart, I perpetually feel the agony of the millions if not billions in poverty. Why should I ignore their pain and conform to such an evil society? My words begin to become bitter because of my impatience for ignorance so please try not to equate my language to that of contempt. Would you rather preserve individuals’ avarice at the sake of the poor’s lives, or would you choose to advance a society that leaves none behind? Before we clamor over our innate rights to various freedoms (i.e. consumerism), we should learn to respect life itself. Would anything be possible without life? The extent to which we take life for granted horrifies me. Everyday 20,000 people die [estimate found in End of Poverty’s introduction] from extreme cases of poverty. With a respect for life in mind, choose the proper path for yourself and ponder the proper path for humanity. I’ll end this with a quote I found in a small Christian book: “Willful sin is the separation between man and God.” Remember, we are choosing to ignore those who suffer by not taking an active stance. </p>

<p>I would really enjoy hearing the opinions of just about anyone (whether it be adults or kids my age) so thanks in advance for your comments.</p>

2

<p>Clemmenceau answering a man who expressed shock that Clemmenceau’s son had become a communist.
“If he had not become a Communist at 22, I would have disowned him.
If he is still a Communist at 30, I will do it then.”</p>

<p>The aim of communism is indeed noble but it fails in the execution for two reasons: one, it requires a “dictatorship of the proletariat” and therefore tremendous loss of personal freedom in terms of artistic expression, recording of History not just economic freedom; and two it lowers the overall productivity of the society. In our society if a few prisoners are mistreated in a prison run by Americans there is a great outcry in the press and embarassment for the government. In the soviet union millions died in the gulag and the press said nothing. Our system has its faults, but this cure is many times worse than the disease.</p>

3

<p>Mardad is very eloquent. I second most of what is said.</p>

<p>From an empirical/practical viewpoint … the most capitalist societies the west and the US in particular have the most wealth (material-leave the other for another thread) . …the poorest in our country have reasonable basics (excluding mentally ill-again another subject) … </p>

<p>I think it is more humane to have uber-rich and the poor to have running water and indoor plumbing that for all to have limited electicity and services</p>

4

<p>Why do we base our lives on fruitless desire? The “uber-rich” can never be satisfied with what they have, cultivating an inability to achieve happiness. </p>

<p>Do people only work to get money or is there an actual love for their work? How can you be most efficient if the only thing tying people to their jobs is money?</p>

<p>In my personal version of communism, there should not be some radical uprising in which the political system is branded upon the people but instead the ideology should emerge from the people. I try my best to explain my views to other people so that I can put their lives into perspective and to hear their feedback; also, if they agree with what I say, they can repeat the process. Lenin failed to fully follow this key principle when he led Russia into communism because the Bolshevik Revolution demonstrated that his support among the Russian people was not strong enough to singlehandedly remove the czar’s power. Bloodshed was needed to do that with the murder of the Royal family. Also, Lenin’s ideals did not truly coincide with that of the people’s; this is exemplified through the division within his own party less than 2 months after the revolution. </p>

<p>People should begin to understand that the power of any government is derived from the people which they govern. The people generate the government’s power.</p>

<p>A seamless transfer of ideas in science and the arts is a key part of this communism in that there is no other reason to pursue them other than great convictions in the expression or action. An absence of avarice/desire would not inhibit forms of art for if there’s no dependence upon money shouldn’t thoughts flourish?</p>

5

<p>From Ecclesiates
2Vanity** of vanities, says the Preacher,
vanity of vanities! All is vanity.
3What does man gain by all the toil
at which he toils under the sun?
4A generation goes, and a generation comes,
but the earth remains forever.
5The sun rises, and the sun goes down,
and hastens[c] to the place where it rises.
6The wind blows to the south
and goes around to the north;
around and around goes the wind,
and on its circuits the wind returns.
7All streams run to the sea,
but the sea is not full;
to the place where the streams flow,
there they flow again.
8All things are full of weariness;
a man cannot utter it;</p>

<p>Your concerns are not new. Written about 2500 years ago at least. </p>

<p>I would say that a key flaw is your assumption that 'people only work to get money" I don’t --thats a big part of it, but you have the opportunity to pursue the work you desire, or at least meld a life that incorporates a love of many things. …food for thought</p>

6

<p>But if you and your family’s needs (food, water, shelter) were met, could you still see yourself doing what you do now? Does the job itself satisfy you or does the money you make? These aren’t really personal questions to 15mbw, merely thoughts. I do realize that my thoughts have been in people’s minds for generations, but how many of them would maintain their belief regardless of society’s expectations? I think that’s the critical difference between me and Clemenceau; I will live my own life based on my own belief. I attempt to apply my belief in trying to teach others my way of life. </p>

<p>P.S. Don’t confuse my discussions with forceful impression of ideas.</p>

7

<p>I spent five years - from 1989 to 1995 - working in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union to promote investments there and to help build businesses. I met people from all different walks of life on a daily basis and I can tell you with no uncertainty that Communism, as practiced in different modes in these countries (including Romania and Albania) ruined the lives of a whole generation. If you have the time - and money - take a trip to Poland, Hungary or the Czech Republic. Things aren’t perfect but very few, if any, would want to go back.<br>
Capitalism - if properly regulated - can be and has been the greatest force for good in the world. The Chinese - and Mao - slaughtered 30-million people to achieve their “success”. Their economy is now really capitalist.</p>

8

<p>A key element to whether communism vs capitalism works: human nature and the ability to regulate it. Capitalism (w/its inherent desire to accumulate wealth) can be regulated to prevent (or lessen) “oppression” of the “little people”…Communism, however, has not found a way to solve the problem of the slacker…as a self-employed person who loves her work (and who earns every penny of her compensation), I resent – A LOT – having to subsidize lazy folks who do as little as they possibly can w/out risking getting fired. </p>

<p>I don’t care how much you love your work; there are times when it demands “too much” and there are elements that are boring or that you don’t want to do. Without incentive (earning the money to pay the mortgage, put food on the table, meet the kid’s college tuition bill!) it seems an awful lot of the necessary “grunt work” simply wouldn’t get done…</p>

9

<p>The idealistic youth! We were all there. Your definitions are correct as a scholarly exercise. Great idea! In actuality - practical application - as long as people are involved (not everyone will be honest, ethical, caring or honorable) communism does not, did not, and cannot work. That is because power can corrupt and it does and did. My family lived under communist rule in Poland, and I visited during those years. There was a saying - loosely translated (it rhymed and was cute in Polish): If you sit or stand $2000 you deserve. The problem was that the govt guaranteed everyone a job. Nice idea, huh? Well…a factory that normally would employ 200 had 2000, and the coffee houses were packed ALL DAY LONG! There was nothing to do. Women took off work to stand in line to buy OUNCES of meat (if you bought more, you risked a riot by those behind you, because it was limited. Everyday workers came to believe they were entitled to the govt handout. And apartments were regulated - you couldn’t choose where to live or what size you could have. My cousin got a refurbished apartment, and had to wait 6 months for a phone! Why work if you got paid anyway? How about waiting 2 years for a car that you had to order and prepay? People had $ and no way of buying anything. Production was down to almost nothing - Poland used to be the breadbasket of Europe - well, why produce if you get paid no matter what? No wonder that when I was there, I was selling dollars for 100 zlotys when the govt approved rate of exchange was 33. The people wanted dollars, francs, marks, etc., back then, because they could get consumer items on the black market for “real” money. The zloty was not allowed out of the country. It didn’t even have an exchange rate outside the country.<br>
Interesting story - my uncle, who was a carpenter and furnitre builder was sent to Russia with a shipment of furniture. Russia demanded the best A quality (that which was exported and sold through Neimann’s here). When he got to the border, the customs agents checked the shipment and decided the quality was only D or E quality, and berated my uncle about how Poland keeps sending inferior material to mother Russia. My uncle had learned (as had many of the people) how to deal with the system, and he apologized, and said that he couldn’t give Russia such inferior inventory, so he would just take it back, and return in another 6 months or so when the new stuff was made. The customs agent blanched - the stuff for sure was destined to one of the ruling party, and knew his job and life was on the line if the stuff didn’t get delivered, so he remarked everything A quality. The best was sent for export to the ruling class in Russia and overseas. The people got little or nothing. There were class distinctions under communism. Poverty, barely subsisting and the ruling class. They had mercedes, huge apartments, houses on the sea, etc., whereas everyone else had to live 4-6 people in 3 rooms! Some houses had shared baths or kitchens with other tenants. Yes, school was free, as was medical care. But entrepeneurialism and creativity was stifled - first the govt owned almost all industry, so why get ideas when they couldn’t be fulfilled to make something new or better? You got nothing for it. Many people learned to be lazy and mediocre. You don’t rock the boat, and get by. My father escaped because as a teacher he was turned in for belonging to the Christian Democratic Union. The government controlled the economy as well as everyones “freedoms.” There weren’t any.<br>
Give me capitalism anyday. We at least can choose where and how to live, change jobs, and be creative if we choose to follow our dreams. And we can say what we want. Yes, we have to pay for everything, but under communism, those free things destroyed the economy in 40 years, and it could not survive financially.</p>

10

<p>Capitalism: provides a discrete system whereby man can provide his fellows with the goods and services they need. A system based on negative laws.</p>

<p>Communism/command economy: a hopelessly inneficient system, since all the knowledge required to correctly plan an economy can never be held by any man. Also akes away rights of its citizens by forcing them to follow the positive duties of the command economy. (See Hayek)</p>

<p>A free and liberal society is the only one where our rights remain uninfringed and where also a market exists for everyone to participate in mutually beneficial exchanges.</p>

11

<p>I’m glad you’re thinking about the poor and some of these deeper issues. Young people tend to be idealistic–a good thing. My random thoughts on this issue–I’m middle-aged, well-traveled, and concerned about economic justice:
Remember that The U.S. system is far from pure capitalism. Not like 100 years ago. We have labor unions and laws that protect workers-- like minimum wage, overtime, worker safety, and child labor laws to name a few. Also, American workers’ taxes support education, social security, welfare, medicaid/medicare, etc. that help the young, elderly, poor, and sick in our society.
Americans may seem greedy and materialistic, but after paying our bills and all those taxes to support social programs, we still give away–freely in charity–more than any other people. Communist systems are atheistic, and that takes a lot of “goodness” out of people. “Willfull sin is the separation of God and man. . .” as you said. </p>

<p>Communists do not allow citizens to travel freely --so they won’t see how their government has lied to them. (If the communist system is so great, why is it always based on lies/strict control of information?) Back in the 70s, a relative of mine from Poland got a chance (probably through dishonesty!) to come over to the US. He’d been taught that all he might have heard about America’s wealth was fake. On his last day in the U.S., his hosts asked him if there was anything he wanted to do in the few hours before he went to the airport. He said “take me to that place again that is just like Heaven-- where you have the rows and rows and mountains of food.” He wanted to go to the grocery store. I visited the Soviet Union, heard all their propaganda, and saw the empty stores/ long lines there–and traded on the black market, too.</p>

<p>As others have said, Communisim is against human nature. People will work hard if they can enjoy the fruits of their own labors. If you get just as much for not working, pretty soon no one works. The only markets that flourished under communism were the black markets. People are naturally capitalistic. Look at China today. . .now that people have a chance to buy things to make their own lives more comfortable, capitalism is taking off there. </p>

<p>Have you noticed that Communism almost always turns into a dictatorship? Rule by “personalities” and loyalty to a person will not last. Look at Castro. He said he wanted to help his people–might have had good intentions at first–but power soon corrupted him, and his people ended up even more oppressed than before. (Also, speaking of personal loyalties, think of all the problems with tribalism in Africa–where I lived for 2 years “helping” the poor with the Peace Corps–also paid for by “greedy” American workers’ tax dollars. . .) Our government depends on LAW. We may not trust individuals running our government, but we still trust the law. (And we trust our free press to give us the truth, whether it hurts the government or not. That helps keeps people honest. Yes, all politics is dirty and personal, but when based on false information and control of the media–cover-up rather than exposure-- it is a lot dirtier) Why did people who voted for Kerry not rise up and riot when he lost? Because they knew that their lives would be pretty much the same under Bush, and the law would protect even those who disagree with the current administration. Something I heard during the election–“Our government is like a train. People shout at it from the right. People shout at it from the left. And it pretty much just keeps on going straight down the track.” </p>

<p>Communism is already a proven failure. If you want to help the poor, you might want to get involved with an organization that helps promote economic self-sufficiency. Give your time and $ to the charity of your choice.</p>

12

<p>actually your definition seems inherently flawed because you said communism gives everyone “equal oppertunity” when in actuality even in “ideal communism” ie when it works w/o death camps and dictators there is no oppertunity- you cannot advance through hard work because everyone is equal and everyone gets the same share so there is actually very little oppertunity for anyone</p>

13

<p>Opportunity can never be equalized. Are you talking monetary equality? Than you are certainly shallow, since there are many other facets to opportunity. What about good looks, athleticism, intelligence? What if you are born blind? Does that mean we must take one of my eyes and give it to you to create equal opportunity?</p>

14

<p>crzy_commie:</p>

<p>Are you a student and if so - which university do you attend?</p>

15

<p>Just my take…</p>

<p>Capitalism motivates people to produce goods or services for our society, which increases the overall standard of living. “Poor” in our capitalist society is a ton better than “poor” in communist Russia. We expect indoor plumbing, electricity, heat, and some reasonable level of shelter. Very few people lack that (and those that do often do so “voluntarily” - i.e. the homeless - but will nto discuss the mental illness involved in many of those people). </p>

<p>JK Rowling is the perfect example of capitalism at work. She’s beyond wealthy, but has contributed a ton to our society - her books alone stimulate bookstores (many of which are small businesses), encourage a tremendous amount of reading, have spawned other industries (which = employment) - and she’s rich from it. Good for her. </p>

<p>I don’t mean to condescend, just to make you think a bit - but have you ever worked until the wee hours of morning when your classmates were asleep? Have you ever taken a very hard major - like engineering - instead of sand-bagging through with communications? People educate themselves in part becuase of the opportunities it provides. Education is, IMO, completely essential to a free, healthy, progressive society. Imagine a society without the best engineers and doctors and judges - what would that be like? If we were a communist country, why on earht would anyone put themselves through the hell it takes to get those credentials? We know that college is the ticket to a better life, but still, less than 1/2 of the people my age have a bachelor’s degree. How much worse would that be under communism, when there is only a very idealistic incentive (i.e. love of learning) to educate oneself? Would we even have those opportunities?</p>

<p>Americans have an incredible work ethic. There are some countries that are better, but we are usually quite productive and work longer hours & take less vacation than other countries. Can be a bad thing - but it demonstrates a certain willingness to produce goods or services and raise our standard of living.</p>

<p>In short - capitalism provides motivation for people to add to society.</p>

16

<p>As stated more eloquently before, there is grunt work that needs to be done. Capitalism allows that to happen.</p>

17

<p>1) im but a HS student curious in the ways of the world
2) my belief + communism don’t necessarily coincide… it’s just that I believe that the people themselves must establish the new society out of their own belief in its success
3) I really appreciate everyone’s feedback b/c it helps me foresee argumentation in my future</p>

<p>In my belief money should not exist because people should simply pursue what interests them after a time of education and a time to give back to the community (collective farming). The education would cultivate a sense of equality within the young children. The greed would seem irrelevant to their lives because as children they were satisfied with what they had. As long as everyone in this world can love all others equally, then utopia can become a possibility. Of course, the boundless love for all would be derived from a sense of respect towards life. Also, this utopia would need to be on the global scale to be most efficient. To make such love, the people have to unite in the demolition of division. In this particular case, love can be expressed in tiers based on the key elements of blood relation [family], friendship, and marriage, resulting in stratified love. One solution to such a problem is to take away people’s desire to have sex by moving towards artificial fertilization (slight flaw is that man will feel joy in producing the sperm) but upon birth of the child, an environment filled with loving people will surround her/him regardless of the birthfather/mother’s presence. Not knowing who her/his parents are, the child will construct interdependence between all people. When (s)he grows, (s)he will take up the role of a farmer as a critical responsibility within the utopian society. After that (s)he can consider different jobs such as being a doctor as long as her/his pursuits are not derived from personal ambition but instead should be from the need for further technological/social progress for all humanity.</p>

18

<p>The society you are suggesting is one where people basically have zero rights. Telling people who they can and can’t have sex with as well as ordering people to use artificial fertilization is an incredibly dangerous path. Not allowing us to marry? Come on. People will never accept such controls–its barbaric. </p>

<p>You have an idealistic solution, but I don’t think you have thought it through all the way. What if there are some people who are inherently evil? People who will not work with and love others, people who will work to destroy society? </p>

<p>Also, when most everybody is a farmer, then society will be horribly disadvantaged compared to say, the United States of today. What do you say to the people in your idealized society who will die because they don’t have the advanced level of care that we have today in the US?</p>

19

<p>The basic problem with overall equality (e.g. what Communism is proposing, an essential utopia of rights and material property) is that it is so fragile a construct, the framework can be destroyed by the ambition of a single entity – man, woman, or even child. If one person, in a perfect Communist utopia, has the ability to rise up and has the desire to manipulate them for profit (yes, just ONE person), then all would have been for naught.</p>

20

<p>There is a very big difference between sex and making love. Don’t forbid one because the other is less than perfect.</p>