International Student. Ivy/T20 - Clueless

Applying to College
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The title pretty much sums it up, I want to try my hand at applying to an Ivy/ T20 University. Would be applying no Financial Aid. Currently in y11 / 10th grade at a British grammar (not private) school, and have a few questions:

Would my GCSE’s/ A level predicted’s be used as an alternative to a GPA? I’m taking Maths, Further Maths, Economics and Geography for A level and my GCSE predicteds are 10 9s and 1 8 but I should get straight 9s. I take the usual (both englishes, maths, triple science) + Music, Food, Business, German and Geography.

I’m planning to write the SAT/ ACT in the summer, how much weightage does this actually have?

Also how do the college essays work, I’ve heard they are much more personal than the UK personal statement. Can you just write about anything?

My ECs aren’t crazy, and they are mainly music focused. Is that a problem as I’m not applying for a music course? My primary instrument is voice, but I’ve played piano for 8 years and recently picked up guitar. What could I do to make myself stand out more? Also which colleges (in the Ivy+/T20) have the best singing/ choral programmes? And how does applying with a music supplement work?

As for my stats: My GCSE predicted’s have been mentioned above, I won a county (kinda like state but a bit smaller ig?) singing competition, and got to meet royalty to have my award presented which was pretty cool. I have a g8 ABRSM voice and am trying to get my FRSM (highest level of diploma - equivalent to a masters in music) by July 2026/ end of junior year. I have a g8 in LAMDA public speaking if that means anything? I’m trying to get wex/ internships but not old enough for most opportunities here as UK unis don’t really require any. I run a choir at school and next year fingers crossed I’ll be running the choir for a joint school charity event that typically raises upwards of 3000USD for local hospitals, started after an ex-student had a life threatening injury and was saved by them.

Applying here to Cambridge, LSE, UCL, Warwick and yet to pick a safety for Econ, might switch out Warwick for an alternative course at Cam/ LSE. Probably going to apply for a choral scholarship at Cambridge.

I know logistically it’s a long shot, but thanks for reading all the way to the end of this post :slight_smile:

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If you would like to study in the U.S. and if you would like to study economics, you may benefit from these analyses to narrow your potential selections to a manageable number of schools:

https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.uslacecon.html

https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.usecondept.html

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Thank you! By any chance do you know if any of these schools have a noteworthy musical presence? And whether any musical ECs would help in the grand scheme of things?

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Taking a step back, what are you looking for out of a US college experience that you would not get out of a UK undergrad experience?

In terms of your questions, it is a lot of “it depends” sort of answers without more context.

But basically, yes, coming out of an A Level system they will be looking at your GSCE and predicted A Levels. You don’t have a US-style GPA so they won’t be looking for one.

The importance of ACT/SAT scores–well, it depends! But at most US colleges, it is potentially helpful to have test scores at or above their normal reported range. In some cases they may also look at your Math subscore. In other cases, they do not consider test scores at all (these are called test blind colleges).

On essays, there is the main Common App essay, which is fairly open in terms of topic but there is guidance about more or less helpful topics and themes. And then colleges may also have what are known as supplemental essays, in which case what you should be thinking about writing depends on the prompt for each essay.

On ECs, in some cases it is fine to have ECs totally unrelated to your academic interests. In other cases it might be helpful. Again, very much an “it depends”.

In terms of music specifically, at some colleges it might be a fairly helpful sort of EC, because they have a lot of student music activities. But at some of those colleges, the talent level for even non-music-majors is extremely high. So again, it depends on what you hope to do with music in college and where you are looking.

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Thank you so much for your answer! The job market in the UK is absolutely horrific at the moment, and my older friends from Cambridge have been struggling to find internships, applying to over 45 and not getting any acceptances. I’ve heard that the market is slightly better in America, and overall salaries tend to be higher, which is one major benefit. I’ve also always been intrigued by the idea of America as a nation, it seems so similar yet so different to the lifestyle I have here, I guess I just wanted the experience?
Cambridge and LSE will still be my top priority as I’ll have a lot less debt as a domestic student, and honestly I think I’m pretty likely to get into atleast one of them, but American universities also offer a flexibility that you don’t get in the UK, and a more well rounded course, rather than specialising so early.
Plus a lot of Americans tend to view HYPSM as significantly harder to get into than Oxbridge/ more respectable. It’s definitely a flex to get into both. But that’s a more petty reason

As for the competence of my music performance, it should be well above the standard for acceptance into high ranking conservatories- if I manage to get the certification in time, around the level of a masters degree. In which case would this potentially give me an edge?

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Also just out of curiosity what exactly do you mean by more context?

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Please note that staying and working in the U.S. after graduation is not automatic. While your student visa allows you to work for a year under Optional Practical Training (OPT), you will need an employer to sponsor a work visa if you wish to continue working in the U.S. Beyond that, if you intend to reside here permanently, you’ll need a green card, which also requires sponsorship.

These opportunities can be difficult to secure, especially as an economics graduate.

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Please remember, if you come to the U.S. for college, you will be coming on a student visa, not a work visa of any kind. In most cases, you will be required to return to your home country once you finish college.

Please don’t view college in the U.S. as a way to get a job in the U.S. and if this is your goal and you state it when applying for your student visa, you have the potential to be denied.

@MYOS1634

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In all cases, (after OPT), unless the student is sponsored for a work visa, or obtains permanent residency through other means (for example, marriage to a U.S. citizen).

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Right okay, thanks for that. As I mentioned there is more to it than that but in hindsight yeah that was a bit of a stupid reason…

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There is a lot for you to unpack in terms of applying to U.S. elite colleges as an international student. For most of those T20 schools, the acceptance rate for international students is in the low single digits.

If you really want to study in the U.S., and finances are not an issue, you probably want to research some less competitive colleges for admission.

There are some very fine universities here that are outside the T20.

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Studying in the US isn’t my dream, but admission into top tier schools would definitely help with networking for jobs etc.
My “safeties” are in the UK.

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Where?

It’s good that you are starting to research this early!

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Is it included in the post above, in the UK I am applying to Cambridge, UCL, LSE, and either Warwick or another Cambridge course (yet to be decided) and my safety hasn’t been confirmed but it’s probably something like Bath.

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It’s just ridiculously more expensive to study in America so if I do go I want it to be worth it yk?

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Your odds at Cambridge with 9-8s on GCSEs and potential A* A* A (inferred from 9s) + high-level Voice are above average, which means your choices then derive from that credible possibility.
(King’s did get a lot of new singers this year but 2 years from now it shouldn’t be a problem).

Voice is your main EC and what you describe is an excellent EC, ie , cohesive and high-level.

Yale and Princeton sound like what you want (high level economics, flexibility, music), perhaps Northwestern. Amherst? Georgetown? Wellesley if you’re a girl?

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OK, so based on what you told us, my suggestion is you reflect on whether it really makes sense for you to apply to US colleges at all.

Other people already covered the visa issue. My concern is the sorts of US colleges you are talking about typically want to know why you are applying. And what they are really looking for is people who really understand and truly value what they offer in terms of academic and non-academic experiences. This is true for their domestic applicants, but I think they even more scrutinize their International applicants for such an understanding. And even very highly qualified Internationals can easily end up in the very large majority who will be rejected if they suspect you are not applying to them for the right reasons.

Of the reasons you cited, the only one that will really resonate with these colleges is the idea they have a more exploratory model. But in subsequent posts, it seemed to me, at least, that you clarified you really are not so interested in that model if you can get into what you see as one of your top UK alternatives, and also not so interested in that model unless you get into a US college in what you perceive as being the “top tier”.

To be very blunt, I think if these colleges sniff that out, they will likely not be interested in admitting you. Just for example, here is a snippet from the Yale Admissions Podcast. For context, they have experienced a large volume increase in applications, many International, and in a series of podcasts they explained they are now doing an initial review phase to cut out a lot of applications. They look for six basic things in that phase, and this is one of them:

HANNAH: All right. Number five would be academic interests that align with a liberal arts approach. And this kind of goes back to challenging yourself academically because you’re looking forward to challenging yourself in college. We don’t admit students who are going to come to Yale and study one thing in a vacuum. That is not the type of education we offer here at Yale.

It’s a place where students inform their studies across disciplines. And you need to really be excited about that in order to be a successful, happy Yale student.

MARK: I know that every year I’ve read some really accomplished and very impressive applications from students who have just done amazing things and they’re going to do great things in college, but they are just a terrible academic pick for Yale.

And it seems that they’ve applied to Yale less because they’re actually interested in the four year experience of learning here and more just because it has an impressive sounding and prestigious name. And sometimes they’re confused like how did I get denied? I’m so accomplished. And we say, well, did you know what you were signing up for?

HANNAH: Right. Right. We want to set you up for success. We want to admit students who are really going to thrive in that interdisciplinary approach.

There is a lot more, but this is an example of how they distinguish what they see as good reasons versus bad reasons to apply to Yale, and they are explicitly trying to identify people with what they see as bad reasons to quickly reject.

OK, so if in fact you are really just applying to them for the prestigious name, then applying to them would basically be an exercise in deceit–can you fool them into thinking you are someone you are not, who is interested in them for different reasons than your real reasons, such that you might trick them into admitting you?

I am not saying all this to try to cast you in a bad light, I think it is perfectly understandable you might initially approach US college admissions in the way you did given the excellent options you have in the UK. But I am pointing it out to warn you that these colleges know a lot of highly qualified International approach them this way, and they are looking to weed you out of their applicant pools. So if that remains the real basis of your interest–I think it might be wise just to recognize that you and these US colleges are not a good fit, and maybe just stick to your UK applications.

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Thank you for your answer. I am quite new to this process and haven’t really looked in-depth enough into any of the American Universities to know what exactly I want to get out of the experience- not the best method I know. Not making excuses. I wanted to narrow down the selection of colleges first before looking at the specifics but I agree with going in completely blind only for prestige is not the best way to apply. My parents seem adamant with me at least applying though, which is honestly another main reason I’m looking at US unis in the first place (again not a great reason). I think before I proceed further I should probably look into what makes each university so special, and less so at the name. See if I really connect with anything that they offer. I really appreciate the guidance, and the reality check :upside_down_face:

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Thank you for your answer! Cambridge does seem a much more… realistic opportunity. I’m hoping to apply to Trinity, but obviously there’s pooling asw which could affect where I end up.
From people I’ve talked to, Selwyn choir seems to be one of the best, so I might apply there instead.
In regards to your university suggestions (Princeton, Yale, Northwestern) what specially do these schools offer in terms of music that others don’t? I’ve heard about Yale being quite fond for accapella but not much else. I was thinking of applying EA/REA to Princeton, because of the amazing econ programme, and the flexibility (but also looking at UPenn- Wharton) and because I have family in the area. Haven’t seen much about their music community though.
Also I am female, which would probably affect my admission into any choral programmes universities might offer (including Cambridge!).

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While your predicted A-levels sound great, you really want to prep yourself intensively for the SAT or ACT. That is a hard data point, not subjective, that US colleges will be very happy to see.

Take a free practice SAT and a free practice ACT, under timed conditions, and see how you feel about each of the tests, and choose one to focus on. I think that there are more frequent and widely available dates and places to take the SAT outside the US, than there are for the ACT. However, some people find that the ACT is better suited to them.

Once you make your choice, obtain the prep materials recommended online and start prepping, very soon if you’re planning on taking the test this summer. Your goal is an extremely high score, to confirm your high achievement in your UK school. If you can hit 1550 or 35, that will pretty much fulfill the requirement for a very high score, and support the rest of your application.

Of the top schools, take a close look at Harvard, because Harvard does not have a school of music or any performance majors, but does have a vibrant performing arts scene. They seem to give some preference in admissions to performing artists.

Is your family ready and able to pay essentially $400K for your undergrad education in the US? The top schools that you’re talking about do offer fin aid to int’l students, but it sounds as if you are thinking that your family would be full-pay?

In addition, I suggest that you expand your search to include top small liberal arts colleges. Take a look at this list of colleges ranked by Econ departments - there are many, many excellent ones. With your qualifications, I am sure that you could get into some good ones.

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