I am trying to help a kid applying to some of the California State University campuses next year.
However, I am really concerned about the 4-year and 6-year graduation rates of the CSU campuses.
http://collegeapps.about.com/od/sat/a/Cal-State-sat-scores.htm
According to the above website, the 4-year and 6-year graduation rates of CSU campuses are very low.
For example:
Cal Poly SLO 29% - 70%
San Diego State 33% - 66%
San Jose State 8% - 48%
Los Angeles 7% - 36%
What do these numbers mean? How could students not graduate after 6 years? Even Cal Poly SLO, the most selective campus has only 29% of students graduating in 4 year? Do they drop out, transfer out?
It means that there are a lot of low and moderate income students attending CSU’s whose parents aren’t paying for college and who cannot afford to attend college continuously for 4 years. So many students take longer to graduate because they are working. The demographic of CSU is simply different – except for Cal Poly, the other 3 schools you list are primarily commuter schools.
My son is a CSU grad. He had a good experience and now has a graduate degree from a flagship university in another stat. No undergraduate debt. He was a transfer student – he attended another college for 2 years, then worked for 3, then returned to college at a CSU. He enjoyed his time there. I am assuming that my son is one of those statistics from his first college of a kid who didn’t graduate in 4 years.
For Cal Poly, probably internships that stretch out to 6-year graduation.
You can find transfer rates and 8 year graduation rates in College Navigator. About 2% to 5% transfer and an additional 3%(San Diego State) to 9% (San Jose State University and CSU-LA) graduate in 8 years.
http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?s=CA&ct=1&ic=1&pg=1
Still, with the possible exception of CSU-SLO (78% 8 year grad rate + 5% transfer rate), the graduation rates are low, and it’s likely for the reasons stated by calmon. At CSU-LA, 72% of the 2012-2013 incoming freshman received Pell Grants. Also, many of these students are not prepared for college. At CSU-LA, for example, the middle 50% ACT composite was 15-20. If 25% of your students are scoring a 15 or less on the ACT, you’re graduation rate is going to be low.
^ Thanks for the link. It has a lot of details.
The reasons for delayed graduation may not be the same across all schools. SLO is dense with engineering majors that might make good 5 year programs to begin with. Class loads are heavy and if you don’t stay on track by taking enough credits or if you have to retake a class, you are going to be a fifth year student. Then, there are things common to engineering such as internships, special projects and the like.
And, of course, the beach.
An old study, which I can no longer find, reported that students in the lowest economic quartile did a lot of stopping out rather than dropping out. It just takes them longer to get the money together, and work during the semester interferes with course load. The exception, and it is an important exception, is if they drop out during the first semester. Those students tend not to come back to college.
That said, a low 4 and 6 year graduation rate should be of some concern, maybe not grave concern if the school has many economically poor students, but still a concern. There are implications of a lack of commitment to undergraduate retention and progress, not adequate numbers of required courses for timely completion, and a disconnected student body.
Also, keep in mind that published graduation rates track only students who enter as traditional-aged incoming freshmen. Transfer students from cc or other 4 year schools and non-traditional aged students are not counted.
Otherwise, if students attend part-time or take a semester off to work, they don’t finish in 4. And, yes, there are a pretty fair number of students who are academically dismissed, redirect because they can’t cut it, change their mind about what they want to do, or completely run out of money and never graduate at all.
I imagine most of it has to do with college readiness level. The rigor is roughly the same across all of these schools but since there are weaker students at CSULA vs Cal Poly, fewer students end up graduating on time or at all.
San Jose has more engineering/CS majors than San Diego which is why their rates are a bit lower.
I wouldn’t read too much into graduation rates though as they are more indicative of student preparation than academic quality. If your stats are much higher than the average for any given school, your chance of graduating on time are much higher than what the numbers would suggest.
Yale has a 98% grad rate. That says as much about who Yale enrolls as it does about what Yale does with its students
Grad rates correlate strongly with SES status and admissions selectivity.
Nationwide, the grad rate is only about 50%.
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How could students not graduate after 6 years? Even Cal Poly SLO, the most selective campus has only 29% of students graduating in 4 year? Do they drop out, transfer out?
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Some run out of funding, some get jobs that don’t require a degree, who knows. The state schools still often have commuters. Some commuters will work full time and go to school part time.
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Yale has a 98% grad rate. That says as much about who Yale enrolls as it does about what Yale does with its students
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Exactly…and with their amazing aid, students don’t typically have to work a lot during the school year, so they can focus on school and graduate in 4 years.
Another factor, you’ve got kids who enroll because they don’t know what else to do and the CSU’s can be affordable enough that parents and counselors shuttle them through to commuter schools even if the dedication/interest isn’t there. Without any internal drive, they can get pretty lost on the big campuses and eventually drop out.
The CSU’s will also take kids who have not had the most rigorous backgrounds often giving conditional admission and requiring them to take summer math classes so they meet basic requirements. Kids can be slowed down by having to take pre-reqs they should have taking in high school. The readiness factor does play it’s part.
For your son, this means a lot of kids he met in English 101 won’t be at his graduation ceremony but once he get’s into his major, there will be more consistency.
Graduation rate is certainly something to look at during your search but if you’ve got a dedicated student with a strong academic record, you really shouldn’t discount the first 3 colleges you listed (I know nothing about CSU LA so can’t comment there.) We’re considering several CSU’s for our youngest without any qualms. Look into the honors programs if your child qualifies. Each honors programs varies but some perks can be priority enrollment, specialty housing, required study abroad and more. We know plenty of quality kids who are attending and not having a difficult time staying on the 4-year graduation track. Yes, we know plenty that have dropped too but in most cases, we could have guessed that outcome before they stepped foot on campus whether it was financial instability or academic disinterest.
CPSLO is predominantly residential (it is not in a major metro area with lots of students in commute range), and probably similar in selectivity to UCI (though both schools may vary depending on major applied to). UCI’s four and six year graduation rates are 68% and 86% (versus 30% and 72% for CPSLO). (from entries on http://www.collegedata.com )
However, being a residential CSU means that CPSLO’s net price is likely higher for many financial aid recipients than UCI’s net price, since CSU financial aid appears to be based on commuter students, with no adjustment for residential students (unlike UC financial aid; see the net price calculators). This may cause financial issues with some students needing to take time off school to work and earn some money, delaying graduation.
The mix of majors is different (based on common data set section J for each school). The top type of majors at CPSLO are:
26% engineering (high units per quarter, so some students may not be able to handle that, and co-op jobs are probably common given CPSLO’s preparation for industry work emphasis)
13% agriculture
13% business
6% biological/life sciences
6% parks and recreation
5% architecture (five year NAAB-accredited program)
5% social sciences
The top type of majors at UCI are:
21% social sciences
14% biological/life sciences
12% psychology
10% business
9% engineering
7% health professions
6% visual and performing arts
Whether a given student has a higher risk of delayed graduation at CPSLO than UCI is not necessarily clear, and would require more investigation than just looking up graduation rates. If cost and financial aid are a concern, then that is likely a significant factor; otherwise, one would have to investigate more deeply into the subject.
“How could students not graduate after 6 years? Even Cal Poly SLO, the most selective campus has only 29% of students graduating in 4 year? Do they drop out, transfer out?”
This is an example of how people on CC sometimes seem unaware of the real world - in which students / families simply don’t have enough money, so they stop and start, stop and start several times.
I read that some colleges do a poor job of tracking their graduates, and therefore show a lower graduation rate than is really the case. Many students will graduate from a different college, which may not show up in these stats, if they are not properly tracked.
The 4 year graduation rate is particularly an issue if a student is dependent upon need-based or merit-based aid that is limited to 8 semesters. Even one extra semester without any aid can hurt financially.
The colleges with the highest 4 year graduation rates often have students who are arriving their freshman year with a large amount of AP or dual enrollment credit.
In addition to programs such as engineering that may require more than 120 credits, nursing may also require additional credits. My daughter’s nursing program requires 128 credits, and many students need 4.5 years to graduate. Some start in the 4.5 year program, and others fall into it if they fail a class.
There have been stories in the past about some California public universities where students could not get into classes that they needed to graduate on-time. Many colleges are able to avoid this problem by having enough sections and because seniors are given preference in registration.
Note that CSUs tend to have larger numbers of general education requirements than UCs:
CPSLO: http://ge.calpoly.edu/content/ge-requirements-and-courses (72 quarter units, or about 18 courses)
UCI: http://catalogue.uci.edu/informationforadmittedstudents/requirementsforabachelorsdegree/ (13 courses, or about 52 quarter units)
The greater number of general education requirements may slow down the speed at which students in the same major can graduate, since a student in a high unit major may need to take overloads (more than 15 units per quarter) to complete all subject requirements for both the major and the general education requirements in 12 quarters (= 4 academic years).
Graduation rates have to be reported to the federal government as part of IPEDS. Every school has to use the same methodology. They fill out a GR survey, which then calculates out the results. They do not track students that graduate at a different college. (or I should say, they don’t have to, and it’s not included in the GR survey). Tracking transfer rates is optional, so it doesn’t always show up in IPEDS.
^This. It is so misleading! My D graduated in four years, but she transferred after the first, so her graduating does not show up in either school’s statistics. that means that nationwide, grad rates are losing all students who transferred.
My S graduated from the same school he started at, but took 10 years, so his graduation doesn’t show up either.
I have always thought that the methodology should somehow show all the nation’s graduates, not just those who graduated within 4 or 6 years from the school they started at.
It is what it is. 
It’s a metric with very limited boundaries. However, it does allow you to compare apples to apples when looking at different institutions. Once you loosen up the definition, it becomes impossible to compare colleges or have a baseline measure to compare against.
It’s a measure that has value, as long as you understand it’s limitations.
Of course, some schools still take advantage of it’s strict limitations, such as only counting students that enroll in the fall, by having academically weaker students enroll in the spring…these students who are more likely to drop out are now not included in the measurement.
Again, these graduation rates are MEANINGLESS without context. We don’t know why the students aren’t graduating in 4 or 6 years (although college readiness level is probably the largest driver).
There are a number of reasons (which may or may not be applicable to any one student) for low graduation rates. Unless the actual reasons are known, these graduation rates are useless data.