<p>My S took the AMC Math 10 test this year, as a sophomore. He did not approach it with any seriousness. His AMC score was 99.5. Now, I understand that moving up in the competition requires a score of 120 - so no big deal, right?</p>
<p>However, the only kid in the sophomore class of his high school who scored any higher scored a 100. So I am wondering.</p>
<p>More info. He is a kid who gets As (one A-, horrors:)) and scored 70 on the PSAT math this year. S’s preparation for the AMC involved spending 45 minutes a week for 4 weeks doing some problems with the other kids who signed up. His PSAT prep involved doing the practice test from the booklet once.</p>
<p>This time I promise have an agenda with this question larger than my usual barelly restrained desire to boast:). For those of you with math kids etc., what I am wondering is what this might mean. In other words, if I used my few few mom points to encourage him to study for the AMC next year - was his 99.5 the kind of score that might become an actual moving on score?</p>
<p>More info. He only did 17 problems. He did the last one because it was fun. He did not even attempt any of the ones that looked “too hard” or “too boring”!</p>
<p>More info. This kid will be best served in a college where he cannot in any way feel like he is smarter than the other kids or the professors. Hence my wondering how to use my mom points as for him it will most likely be about grades and scores vs. wildly interesting ECs. So if in his best interest I maximize his chances of going to school with kids smarter than him, from your experience what kind of room to move is there in his math scores?</p>
<p>Thanks - and if this generate flames that’s OK.</p>
<p>Thanks tokenadult, I hoped you would answer. He has only had curricular math:) and he is now in Algebra II Honors. He took Geometry Honors as a sophomore. His grammar school was an alternative school but did give him the equivalent of Algebra I in 8th grade.</p>
<p>I’ve recently learned about the AMC tests and am planning to ask our school district to offer them. Does good performance on these tests increase chances of acceptance to selective colleges? If so, then that will be good ammunition for me.</p>
<p>i took the AMC 10 twice and the AMC 12 twice (i’m a senior). i’m by no means an expert because i only qualified for the AIME test this year. i’m not positive what qualifies you for the next level from the AMC 10 but for the AMC 12 you need to score over 100. the AMC 12 exam is definitely harder than the AMC 10, but you also have more math under your belt and more comfort using what you know. </p>
<p>i’m sure he’s got lots of room to improve. because it’s not only about studying but also about knowing the strategy. because you get a certain number of points for correct answers (6, i believe) and a certain number of points for omitted questions (2.5 i think) and no points for wrong answers, it is really important to figure out how many questions to answer in the first place. you don’t WANT to answer all 25, unless you’re going for a 150 i guess. if you answer 13 and get 12 right, youv’e got a 102. if you answer 15 and get 13 right, you score a 105.5. if you answer 13 and get them all right, you’ve got a 108. so if you’re only concerned with getting to the AIME, less could be more. at least that’s how my teacher tells us to approach it. then again, we don’t do the study group thing for it… he just gives us the test one day. </p>
<p>i’d give him some credit–so many kids i know didn’t even look at the last problem because they assumed it was too hard. but he’s doing it for fun.</p>
<p>Next year, he should take AMC12. AMC problems are quite different from the standard curriculum-based exercises students get. They involve problem-solving skills that need to be cultivated. So a student can be quite advanced in math but not do well on the AMC.<br>
If he takes the AMC12 and moves on to AIME and gets a decent score, it will certainly look impressive (MIT actually asks about AMC and AIME scores). You can get more information from the AMC site. Also visit the Artofproblemsolving.com site for more info and tips on the AMC/AIME/USAMO/IMO.</p>
<p>Competition math is fabulous! It is very creative, and helps to develop critical thinking and problem solving skills. I would encourage anyone with the slightest interest in math, reagardless of their current level, to consider taking at look at what competition math is like.</p>
<p>That said, the way I understand the OP has nothing to do with the inherent value of mathematical problem solving or competition math, but is instead a question of whether a sophomore with a score of 99.5 who was encouraged to put some effort into competition math would be likely to raise their score sufficiently in one year to be impressive to “reach” colleges. The short answer is “unlikely”.</p>
<p>The average score for sophomores taking the AMC 10 is high 70s. A score of 120 is approximately top 3% of all grades, so maybe top 5-6% of sophomores. So a score of 99.5 is probably top 15% or so of sophomores. Some kids taking the AMC exam have seriously prepared, but most haven’t. The majority of even those with scores >100 have probably done even less than your son did. So basically, you want to know how much effort it would take to move from top 15% of classmates based on natural ability alone, to something “impressive” (conservatively, top 5% or better. Maybe more like top 1-2%). The answer is, it would probably take more effort than it is worth spending if your son does not have an inherent interest in it. He should make the decision to pursue competiton math based on his level of interest and the benefits he can obtain from doing it, not out of some desire to “look good” to colleges. If the AMC 10 has lit a fire under him and he wants to spend huge amounts of time on the art of problem solving sites or working with practice problems over the next year, that’s different. If he was driven, he could improve his score a lot. If his motivation is “looking good to colleges”, not so much. MIT and Caltech ask for AMC scores, but most colleges don’t, and a fair number of colleges probably have no idea what the AMC exams are.</p>
<p>I would echo what Marite says, the AMC problems are different than the standard math based curriculum for most students. Check out the AMC site provided in the other posts. If he is interested then he should look at the art of problem solving site and here are a few others:</p>
<p>The west coast version of the math circle is more competition based. Stanford’s EPGY progam also runs a 4 week review class for the AMC 10 and 12 for around $100.</p>
<p>You may also want to do a search on AMC here on college confidential. Recently a number of students have been discussing their scores and whether to report them to their prospective schools before the upcoming admissions decisions.</p>
<p>It’s a tricky thing. S would not admit to liking this very easily. He is almost certainly not going to join a group or anything. He loves puzzles, but I have to sneak up on him with stuff that is openly, what can I say, “nerdy”. While I confess I do want him to look good to top colleges, (which frankly is my right as his mother as long as I don’t let my wishes distort his experience) I also really wanted an assessment of his math potential - which I understand is hard with this data. An assessment of, as I said, how to use my few mother push points for his best benefit.</p>
<p>Sounds like you are saying he is probably your basic BWRK - which doesn’t surprise me, as his interests are pretty varied. He likes F. Scott Fitzgerald probably almost as much as the AMC competition, Discover magazine as much as F. Scott Fitzgerald, and likes the permutations of college basketball more than all of the above:). </p>
<p>It’s just that somehow he feels to me like more than a BWRK, he has these flashes of brilliance in many ways, and I am always looking to see if I can put anything in front of him to fuel the flashes to flames. I won’t be pushing him, it’s not worth it and he’s too nice of a kid:). I just look to wave things at him like a bull and a matador…I will wave the artofproblemsolving and see what happens.</p>
<p>Alumother - does your son program? He might enjoy the training materials and internet contests at <a href=“http://www.usaco.org%5B/url%5D”>www.usaco.org</a></p>
<p>another comment - most kids who get strongly turned on by math competitions and spend mass amounts of time perfecting their peformance have gotten a very early start - like middle school. The kids who are introduced to it for the first time in high school, even if they are very enthusiastic, are at a disadvantage competition-wise. Not too hard to overcome for someone starting 9th grade who has some time; much more difficult for a junior.</p>
<p>Because your son is interested in basketball brackets (just like my son), you may want to try getting him interested in that direction. It is a bit light on math but the book Moneyball is about the application of statistics to baseball. From there he could go in a number of directions.</p>
<p>My son runs a few fantasy basketball and baseball leagues with/for his friends. He has written for online web-sites that discuss how to assemble your teams statistically. This may lead your son to see how important math can be in a number of fields, even ones that interest him.</p>
<p>Alumother–There are kids who are at MIT who did not do all that well on the AMC, so he can look quite attractive to these schools without a spectacular score on the AMC. He has good grades. That is #1.</p>
<p>I think 99.5 is a good score-- it’s better than my D did here first time around, and she scored over 100 on the AMC 12 this year (as a junior) with no prep. She does do mathletes (problem solving team competition once a month or so). She refuses to do any standardized test prep of any kind so far. And it is not worth pushing her to do anything she doesn’t want to do, believe me! But she is not aiming for the top schools, so I guess it doesn’t matter. I don’t know that I am happy about that, but she’s gotta go where she will thrive. Anyway, I think there is a good probability your son could do that (break 100 next year) just by doing a few problems here and there (no need to push), and taking math in school. My S also took the AMC 12 and got over 100, and then took the next test (AIME) and got 2, or something close to that, I think. But, as unimpressive as that might be, he is doing very well in math in college, probably will major in it. (He keeps flip flopping between math and physics as a major.) He also did no prep, no camps, nothing except math at school and mathletes. I think he could have done better had he gone to camps, had some interest in doing math circle or something, but he just never did.</p>
<p>Alu:
Edison said that genius is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. The kids who make it to Intel, IMO, etc… put a lot of sweat equity into it.
My understanding of a BWRK is a student who works hard to achieve in various areas but is not outstanding in any. It sounds to me that your S does not want to seem “nerdy” whether because it is uncool, because he has not developed a true passion, or likes too many things to focus on a single one. That’s different from being a BWRK. </p>
<p>If his AMC score inspires him to aim higher next year, by all means show him the different sites cited here. They might do the trick.</p>
<p>Alu:
FWIW: In addition to being able to download some old test questions (post #6), you also can order copies of prior AMC 10 and 12 test booklets together with answer sheets for a nominal fee. At risk of being a bubble burster, though, most kids I know didn’t study for the AMC 10, but a number of them scored over 100 nonetheless. My sense is that it would be easier, and probably more worthwhile in terms of your stated goals, for your S to study and improve his psat (and down the road SAT) math score than to improve an AMC score to the point of being “impressive” - particularly since he’ll be moving on to the AMC12 next year.</p>
<p>I’m a high school student now (Senior) and I’ve been taking these tests since 9th grade when I stumbled upon them (and actually took AMC 12 in 9th grade due to the fact I didn’t know there was an easier one until after the administration). I think they are both fun and exciting. I come from a small suburban town where mathematics is one of the weakest, if not the weakest, subjects in our school; so I can understand where you come from when you describe your thoughts about the school curriculum and the test. AMC is much, MUCH different from the school math. It is in no way, shape, or form an indicator of your child’s mathematical capabilities. Its more of a test of problem solving (like mentions above AotP.com is exceptional, as a member there too :D) and how well you can use your calculator. Also, it is very much strategizing. Like a previous poster mentioned, some people stick to a rigid formula of solving 16 or 17 problems on the AMC to simply get the minimum score. Other, they shoot higher to do well on the AIME, and then the USAMO. But, there shouldn’t be any guessing cause that could be the difference between a 117.5 and a 120. As for the thoughts about if this will help out in college, I can honestly say that it can’t hurt. AMC, in itself, is not that effective due to the sheer amount of kids that qualify the original test. However, doing well can get you numerous things: School winner, Multiple school winner, Invitation to PROMYS and other math programs, and most importantly, the AIME. It is primary the AIME that many colleges will look at to see if you did well or not. As for me, studying came from doing many previous tests. There are tons of AMC, AIME, ASHME (the original AMC), JASHME (original AMC 8/AMC10) online and print ordering; doing these tests will not only bring your child’s confidence up, but helps identify the questions that he/she could do easily, rather than wasting time. In regards to your thoughts whether or not he should concentrate on it or not, I think it is an excellent way to learn and to excel. In no class will he ever learn some of the theorems and the formulas in a math team type question. They are challenging and can be rewarding. Furthermore, the AMC 12’s base score to qualify for the AIME is a 100, not 120. Thus, kids are more readily invited to AIME. Another year of school work will help him get familiarize with mathematics, too. A 100 is not that hard, considering that the AMC 10 and AMC 12 share the first 9 or 10 questions. Honestly, your child should not have a problem: 99.5 is an EXCELLENT score. When younger I started in the mid-90s, after studying and a few years, my junior year AMC 12 score was ~140. gluck.</p>
I agree. There is also some similarity in the kind of thinking that is involved in the math portion of the SAT and in the AMC exams, although the aMC exams are harder. Both involve more reasoning rather than just “solve this problem exactly the same way the examples did in chapter 5”. Working on some SAT math preparation may improve his AMC 12 score next year and vice versa.</p>
<p>I gather from the AMC website that the only way to participate in these competitions is through the school. Is this correct? Our school doesn’t participate; if my attempt to persuade the principal to do so fails, is there any other avenue?</p>
<p>My freshman daughter only found out she would be taking the AMC10 a few days beforehand. Due to block scheduling she was only in the second week of geometry, so really she only had last year’s Algebra I to go on. As per advice gained at CC, we followed the link to AoPS, as well as reviewing old tests available online. She hasn’t recieved her official results yet, but based on reviewing her answers she looks to have scored an 84. She felt that what she had reviewed in that short time had been helpful. There were a couple of questions that she knew how to figure based on old problems so I think there is some degree that one can study and improve given time and motivation.</p>
<p>I hear three different questions from the OP-</p>
<p>1) Is there anything in my description of my kid to suggest that there’s unusual math talent here? My answer-- can’t tell from the facts in evidence. I have one “math kid” and one “not math kid” despite the fact that both had similar grades in a tough math curriculum, almost identical scores on standardized tests all the way up to BC calc AP, etc. The math kid lived and breathed math from the time he was six or seven years old. He devoured sports statistics-- even of sports he didn’t like watching. He developed formulas for figuring out when we were going to arrive at Grandma’s house based on the distance and the speed… several years before he understood algebra or even knew that such things were quantifiable. We encouraged him via CTY to do things like Number Theory and Game Theory, which would not have been part of his math curriculum at school, but the rest was really his interest and his passion. The non-math kid was great at “school math”; loved many other things, didn’t live and breathe math. Having them both at the kitchen table with one figuring out the number of calories in a box of cheerios at about age 7 and the other asking why cholesterol is bad for you at age 4 was our daily dose of why the two kids were wired differently.</p>
<p>2)If my kid does indeed have unusual math talent, is the AIME AMC a good use of his time? My answer is yes… my math kid loved the competitions and got him to see a world beyond “school math”. It is especially humbling if you are one of the top kids in your own school to learn that “out there” you can bested by thousands of other kids. Just noodling on the sample problems can be fun for a kid who loves math.</p>
<p>3) If my kid does not have unusual math talent, is this still a productive use of his time and my “mom” chips? I’d say that depends… if you are trying to take your BWRK and find a spark of real passion, my gut tells me from your description that your problem isn’t the math… the problem is him not wanting to seem “nerdy” to others. Most of the really passionate, angular kids I know didn’t give a fig about being nerdy; many of them reveled in their outsider status in HS, or at least were socially oblivious. If this were my kid I’d be working on ways to get him involved in what truly interests him despite what the cool kids think… regardless of what that is. The kids with deep skills or passions in a different area didn’t get that way because a parent stuck them in a “passion boot camp” to develop it… they get that way because they live and breathe a subject or a sport or a hobby and then spend their time avoiding homework so they can do their passion, skipping dinner so they can do their passion, etc.</p>
gluck.</p>