<p>Is this for real? I don’t think we need to bring in your resume, WashDad, to validate your points. Also, do I even need to comment on the irony that you are the one that should actually have the broader of perspectives in government role?</p>
<p>If this debate is turning into an attack on communism, let me tell you, at its roots, communism has very high morals. The human condition in us just deeply blunders the execution of it, that’s why it has never reached center stage in modern history. And therefore, it will never work. China knows this.</p>
<p>And again China, to me, when I visit is far, far, more a capitalistic society than the U.S. will ever be with all our corporate-run society structure. The things they show you on the news, the reason why the Tibetan issue is raised during the year of the Olympics and is supported so much by US government, and the flood of negative press, is, agree or not, partially stemed to mold a American public sense of “Chinese society is oppressive, we don’t want to be like them. They are still a second tier in terms of progress.” Hoping to be more neutral, there are many things admirable about their culture and society, which the US government can only dream about for the American population.</p>
<p>To be sure, those issues may be real and serious, but perspectives are just relative. If the United States had a population of 1.3 billion with our current structure and land availability, I’m sure our government structure would be very different too. Also, if you want evidence, you should look for yourself. I’m not arguing for or against; I am offering probability and possibility. There is just a feeling of embarrassment when the mass of posted opinions is just a repetition of each other in some slight variation. Objective reasoning is required and not unfounded condemnation.</p>
<p>I don’t understand the ‘defense’ of China going on here. What difference does it make what country it is? The issue being discussed is that ‘a country’ (it happens to be China but plug in your country of choice) appears to have possibly been complicit in cheating in the Olympic games by issuing falsified documents. Whether they really have or not we won’t know until this plays out and maybe not even then. Does ‘He’ appear to be way less than 16 y/o to most of us? Yes. Might that just be an appearance issue or a physiological anomaly? Yes. If there was no appearance of evidence that the age has ‘changed’ recently and that the country of residence hadn’t issued documentation that appears to be falsified this wouldn’t even be discussed now. The fact that the country happens to be one with a totalitarian regime only makes the possiblity of governmental complicity that much more feasible. </p>
<p>If the USA did this I’d want to know and I’d want those governmental officials responsible to be held accountable for it. Wouldn’t you? If it happens in China wouldn’t you want that truth to be known as well?</p>
<p>China more capitalistic than US will ever be? WOW. </p>
<p>Do you know anything about how they operate their stock exchanges? There is nothing capitalist about their system,and it is definitely not more capitalist than the American economy.</p>
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<p>No one is attacking communism.</p>
<p>True communism has never being practiced anywhere, but its variations have failed wherever they have been practiced. Communism does not have any higher moral standard than capitalism. Capitalism provide incentives for people to do their best, and it rewards them if they are successful. The means of production should not be in control of the government, it should be in the hands of entrepreneurs. </p>
<p>I also believe that true communism wont work anywhere. </p>
<p>Communism as an economic theory can never be better than capitalism because it does not provide any incentive for risk takers. Even Karl would have agreed with this if he had lived into the 20th century.</p>
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<p>India has a population close to China, and the last time I checked it is a Democratic country, so don’t use population as an excuse.</p>
<p>Please, enough is enough. I am sure most of you believe in the principle of “innocent until proven guilty”. Please stop making statement as if this age matter has been proven. </p>
<p>Secondly, China is a totally different country than US, from many aspects. Looking back of the 5000+ years of history, there had been many internal wars by different regions. Also, the basic ecomonic power is not there. It must be governed with some sort of central power. </p>
<p>The last thing world wants to see is a destabilized China with 1.4 billion people. If all these western style of freedoms are applied, you may see the population of US tripled within 30 days. </p>
<p>Just take a look at the old USSR for reference. They were way ahead of China in ecomonic structures. Where are they now?</p>
<p>Of course, one is innocent until proven guilty. </p>
<p>That is why some of us are REALLY looking forward to see how much effort the Chinese officials will make to clear up the obvious oversight in erasing all prior registrations before being uncovered by the “hacker” or if we will have to accept the same “proof” of an original passport without further documentation. Fwiw, in this case, I’d say that an official passport is simply as credible as the visual evidence of the age of the competitors. </p>
<p>Playing the official passport and official birth certificate is quite a FIG leaf to hide behind! However, there is little doubt that the other FIG will be all too happy to hide behind the “authenticity” of the documents and close this case as soon as possible. </p>
<p>QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES? That question must get quite a few chuckles in China!</p>
<p>Which watchman has authenticated the “hacker” proof? </p>
<p>I have seen quite a few pictures where they show the US swimer touching the wall later in that 0.01 second win. It could be just a PSed photo. Can’t believe everything you see on the web.</p>
<p>That is not for us to decide. The “hacker’s proof” was sufficient to launch the investigation. Since it is a foregone conclusion that the existing documents presented before the Olympics must have included official passports or birth certificates, one could hope that such documents won’t be acceptable, but that MORE extensive documentation will be needed to establish the innocence of the gymnasts. </p>
<p>Speaking about pictures, it would be nice to see pictures of He with friends or families, or credible withnesses who have no vested interest in maintaining the duplicity. </p>
<p>PS By the way, Omega did release the official pictures that clearly did show that Phelps *touched *the wall before his competitor. However, this has no bearing whatsoever because ONLY the touchpad matters in swimming. The pictures only served to appease the protesting coach of Serbia that his racer had indeed been out-touched at the end and that the protest would not go farther.</p>
<p>Traditionally, in China, everyone turned one year older on Lunar New Year Day. So, yeah, everybody is “born” in January or, as the case may be, in February.<br>
Though I don’t think it is the case here. :(</p>
<p>A lot of the top Chinese athletes come from extremely poor families (so training schools are an escape for them) and most poor families give birth using midwives or makeshift clinics, so birth certificates are not immediately registered after birth as they are in the US. In fact, some families do not have the time or means to get their newborns registered until months or even years after birth. Some kids are only registered when they have to be sent to school (and remember, in rural China there are still kids who don’t officially go to school). By that time, most parents can hardly remember the exact date their child was born in. Also, in some parts of China people consider themselves aged a year at New Years, regardless of their actual birthday. So it’s not so strange that an abnormally high percent of the girls listed have birthdays in January and on the firsts of the months. </p>
<p>As someone might have mentioned, the discrepancies in the birthdays listed in various documents for He Kexin and the other two might be simply to due to the fact that their parents lied about their ages to get them into the athletic schools. It’s more likely that (as the new proof of cheating is from an old Chinese national competition list) their old coachs, the ones they trained with before they were selected for the Olympics, lowered their ages to get them into competitions for a younger competition group. I’ve read that’s an unfortunately prevalent practice among provincial team coaches, who are awarded for wins from their athletes. At the provincial level, when many Olympic hopefuls are still in-training, many competitions are divided by age group and before puberty, a 12 yr old gymnast probably does have an advantage over a 10 year old one. </p>
<p>It’s just so illogical that the officials in charge of selecting the gymnastics team with lie about this, or that their superiors would allow such a risk. I mean, a swimmer was banned for life simply because he was discovered to be doping a couple months before the Olympics. </p>
<p>There’s a popular assumption that all the old residence permits and various certificates presented by China are of course fake. And that whatever the athletes themselves or what their parents and relatives say are lies forced by the evil CCP. </p>
<p>The comparison of athletes in China are labeled to animals is so childish and uncalled for. </p>
<p>And, I’ve noticed there are quite a few posts that address China’s political issues in a thread about Chinese gymnasts. Perhaps a new thread should be created for exclusive discussion of Chinese’s ills, rather than confusing the issues.</p>
<p>“Liu never responded in court to the accusations, but the Bush administration entered the fray, urging the court to dismiss the case.”</p>
<p>The “real face” of the Bush administration is more interesting. Government collusions obviously see no cultural, ideological, or political boundaries. :-)</p>
<p>The point about exact birthdays is similar to the one I made. But it does not dispose of the issue of birth year. While it is possible for ages to be lowered for one reason, it is equally possible for the age to be raised for another reason. It could go either way. He Kexin does look awfully young.</p>
<p>Traditionally, every parent in Asia knows his/her child was born in the year of the Dragon or the year of the Rabit,… Most parents remember the month in which their children were born too. Many parents even remember the time. They don’t need any birth certificate to remember. This have been going for centuries. People remember the exact lunar day when their children or their parent died so that they can held annual rememberance ceremonies. It’s impossible to say that Chinese parents cannot remember their single child’s birthday.</p>
<p>Now so you say that Chinese parents lied about their ages to get them into the sport schools. This is the shameless language of the communist party.</p>