IOC investigation of age cheating by Chinese gymmasts

[Sam_Lee]

<p>

are you deliberately pretending not to understand the distinction between individuals doping and evidence of a government faking IDs so underage athletes can break the rules?

</p>

<p>OMG, now you accuse me of not understanding it? LOL! You mean this is like thermodynamics? You guys are just repeating over and over THE OBVIOUS. My question is why are you doing it? What’s your REAL point and agenda? That’s the one I am wondering.</p>

<p>Idmon06,
From reading WashDad’s post #156, it’s obvious to me he went beyond stating gov’t involvement in the cheating. The word choice and tone of that post just smell like superiority complex.</p>

[coolweather]

<p>Let’s hear the opinions of the Chinese citizens living in China.</p>

<p>[Chinese</a> AIDS activist missing for six weeks returns home - Pravda.Ru](<a href=“http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/29-03-2006/78007-China-0/]Chinese”>Chinese AIDS activist missing for six weeks returns home)</p>

<p>[Blogger</a> put in prison for criticising the Olympic Games | The Observers](<a href=“http://observers.france24.com/en/content/blogger_put_prison_criticising_olympic_games]Blogger”>Blogger put in prison for criticising the Olympic Games)</p>

<p>

The famous blogger and defender of human rights Hu Jia was arrested on Dec. 27 for criticising the organisers of the Olympic Games. Specifically, he compared the Beijing Olympic Games to those organised by Nazi Germany in 1936. Hu Jia, 34, has been under house arrest since May last year. Accused of ‘inciting subversion of state power’,a criminal charge usually used against political dissidents, he risks more than ten years in prison. His wife Zeng Zinyan, also a blogger, is now unable to leave the house and is denied access to the telephone or internet. The couple have a baby of hardly more than one month old. Zhang, our regional editor for China, says that with eight months to go until the Olympics, the government is already tightening up on online comment.

</p>

<p>

Transcript of a speech Hu Jia gave to the European Parliament by web cam at the time of his hearing (27 November 2007). </p>

<p>Any human rights activists that talk too loudly are silenced. Millions of innocent people are persecuted in China. They are beaten, imprisoned and sometimes even sent to psychiatric hospitals. Every day the public security minister causes a catastrophe in human rights! As for the Olympic Games, we all hoped they would bring democracy. But the CCP [Chinese Communist Party] just uses the games as a way to enhance itself, as was the case in 1936 [referring to the 1936 Olympics organised by Nazi Germany]. Right now, persecution rates in China are at their highest. To give you an idea: the top boss in charge of the Olympics is also the chief of the Ministry of Public Security in Beijing! That’s really ironic. It’s as if the mafia was in charge of the Olympics."

</p>

<p>[Two</a> women sentenced to ‘re-education’ in China - International Herald Tribune](<a href=“http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/21/sports/21protest.php]Two”>http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/21/sports/21protest.php)</p>

<p>

[quote]

In theory, the Communist Party allows citizens to lobby the central government on matters of local corruption, the illegal seizure of land and extralegal detentions. In reality, those who arrive at Beijing’s petition office are often met at the door by plainclothes officers who stop them from filing their complaints and then bundle them back to their hometowns. Intimidation, beatings and administrative detentions are often enough to prevent them from trying again.</p>

<p>Daniel Bell, who teaches political theory at Tsinghua University in Beijing, suggested that Western political leaders and rights advocates were na</p>

[ldmom06]

<p>ah…thermo. My dh and friends used to call it ‘thermog*dammits’ instead of thermodynamics.</p>

<p>But I digress…</p>

<p>Sam…he’s not saying you don’t understand it, but you choose to pretend not to understand it. Get it?</p>

[Hunt]

<p>“What’s your REAL point and agenda?”</p>

<p>My point and agenda is that I think it’s naughty for a government to cheat in an athletic competition. What’s yours?</p>

[ldmom06]

<p>cool…interesting info/links.</p>

<p>I’m also curious…what’s the count now of American protestors detained during the Games. 10? Two who can’t be located? For the crime of waving a Tibetan flag?</p>

[coolweather]

<p>Response to #165 - I don’t know yet. I will post if I have more info.</p>

[jmilton90]

<p>wall to wall friends.</p>

[ldmom06]

<p>“My point and agenda is that I think it’s naughty for a government to cheat in an athletic competition…”</p>

<hr>

<p>Mine too.</p>

[jmilton90]

<p>Anyways, if we think there isn’t American government “special motivation”, financially and institutionally, to get to where we are in terms of sports dominance in the past 30 years of Olympics, I’m sorry to say, that is again typical American naivete. </p>

<p>But I agree, a thorough investigation for competing 14-15 year olds with 16 year olds is warranted.</p>

[tega]

<p>I though the American government imprisoned Marion Jones after she admitted doping? Why would they want to do that if they want to maintain sports supremacy? The government wants to set an example for other athletes that being honest is far more important than medals. </p>

<p>Honesty is something that other countries are not worried about.</p>

<p>Do you have any evidence of this institutionalized doping you have been talking about?</p>

[jmilton90]

<p>[L.A</a>. Times Olympics Blog: Readers debate age of Chinese gymnasts | Comments Blog | Los Angeles Times](<a href=“http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/comments_blog/2008/08/there-are-two-k.html]L.A”>Archive blogs)</p>

<p>Check out the link. Our discussion has lead to the same discussion which has happened over and over in different web locations.</p>

[coolweather]

<p>[How</a> hacker found proof of He Kexin’s age - Off The Field - News - Olympics](<a href=“http://www.smh.com.au/news/off-the-field/how-hacker-found-he-kexins-age/2008/08/23/1219262576251.html]How”>How hacker found proof of He Kexin's age)</p>

<p>[Hackers</a> unearth more underage gymnast allegations - Gymnastics - Sports](<a href=“http://www.smh.com.au/news/gymnastics/hackers-unearth-more-underage-gymnast-allegations/2008/08/21/1219262374664.html]Hackers”>Hackers unearth more underage gymnast allegations)</p>

<p>

In his spare time Mike Walker likes to find things on web servers that were never meant to be found.</p>

<p>On Monday, after curiosity got the better of him, the 33-year-old computer security consultant toiled for hours without success, as he tried to dig up more information about the allegedly under-aged Chinese gymnast He Kexin.</p>

<p>On Tuesday, after redefining the parameters of his Google Hack, he hit the jackpot. Bingo! The mother lode.</p>

<p>On Google’s cache he found evidence of a record of He Kexin’s birth on a spreadsheet belonging to the General Administration of Sport of China - the country peak sports body.</p>

<p>But the data had been removed.</p>

<p>On the Chinese search engine Baidu, he went one better. He found two caches of Excel spreadsheet which had been published on the web and both of them showed He Kexin’s birthday as January 1, 1994.</p>

<p>The cache is the snapshot of web pages crawled by a search engine spiders which map the web and database their findings.</p>

<p>The following day on Google’s Chinese search engine, google.com.cn, he found yet more cached spreadsheets from the General Administration of Sport of China also showing the birth date as January 1, 1994.</p>

<p>This would make the tiny gymnast - who won two gold medals at the Olympics - 14 years old. Her Olympic credentials list her birth date as January 1, 1992, which would make her 16.</p>

<p>Regulations that were introduced in 1997 by the world gymnastics federation require gymnasts to turn 16 in the year of the Games to be eligible to compete.</p>

<p>“I spent a large amount (of time) failing (to find anything) and a small amount succeeding,” Walker, who works for the Washington DC-based Intrepidus Group.</p>

<p>"It takes a little bit of faith to believe that you can find something out there and sometimes it pays off.</p>

<p>“I put it on Blogger (a free Google blog service) and went out to dinner and the world came calling.”</p>

<p>As a direct result of Walker’s findings and the resulting press coverage that it sparked, the International Olympic Committee yesterday announced that it had called for a review of the age falsification allegations surrounding China’s dual gold medal gymnast.</p>

<p>“We have asked the gymnastics federation to look into what have been a number of questions and apparent discrepancies on this case. And they’ve been working with the [Chinese] national federation … to have a full clarification on this topic,” IOC spokeswoman Giselle Davies told a news conference yesterday.</p>

<p>Late last night, the International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) issued a statement saying that it had widened it inquiry into the age falsification claims.</p>

<p>The federation said it had asked the Chinese Gymnastic Association to submit further documents testifying to the birth dates of He Kexin and four fellow gymnasts - Jiang Yuyuan, Li Shanshan, Deng Linlin and Yang Yilin.</p>

<p>“On receipt of these documents, the FIG will forward its conclusions to the International Olympic Committee. It is in the interests of all concerned, not least the athletes themselves, to resolve this issue once and for all,” the statement said.</p>

<p>Walker is still surprised by the reaction to his findings. “It’s become the centre of a maelstrom and international media attention,” he said.</p>

<p>“I never set out to change the course of the Olympics; I set out as I always do, a curious researcher, intent on the search for truth and the knowledge I could acquire along the way,” he said in a blog post.</p>

<p>

</p>

[munchkin]

<p>

@jmilton90

There is no evidence of Chinese government “conspiracy” to win at all costs, but obviously like the US, they would like to see their national athletes win. I mean, they know and we know, that China has joined the ranks of a world power in the last decade so they appreciate good representation.</p>

<p>I feel like I’m talking to a wall. All I’m saying is to have an open mind. I feel like being American and not automatically joining the China stoning bandwagon, I actually need to defend myself. Again, as far as we can tell, we are presuming the age of these children based on planted news media evidence. And again, Asians can look deceivingly young <— that point doesn’t sit well with most I can understand if they haven’t been traveling abroad.

</p>

<p>We had a heated discussion yesterday at home and that’s what my h siad exactly, keep an open mind till we have more proof and don’t jump on the China stoning bandwagon, and don’t automatically take the American media as gospel truth. I thought the Chinese gymnast looked underage and the govt behaved suspiciously. It ended up with me being called a racist. :eek: Obviously my family is less polite the CCers. :rolleyes:</p>

[StillGreen]

<p>Marion Jones wasn’t jailed for doping, but for perjury and check fraud. It was Judge Karas desire to use the sentence as a deterrent against cheating in sports.</p>

[Hunt]

<p>I think there is some basic misunderstanding here about the difference between the U.S. government and the government of China. U.S. sports supremacy is really not one of the goals of the U.S. government. While the U.S. government has done plenty of things I’m not proud of, there are essentially no ramifications to the government if the U.S. doesn’t dominate the Olympics. This is not the case for China.</p>

[WashDad]

<p>

@jmilton

Anyways, if we think there isn’t American government “special motivation”, financially and institutionally, to get to where we are in terms of sports dominance in the past 30 years of Olympics, I’m sorry to say, that is again typical American naivete.

</p>

<p>You produce credible evidence that the US government is running the US Olympic program, I’ll apologize. Until then, I can prove that Chinese government IS their Olympic committee, and you have nothing.</p>

<p>As for naivete, bet you a nickel that I earned my BS in Political Science with a focus on international relations before either you or Sam Lee did. And you both conveniently missed my comments that I believe the failure of more US athletes to be caught using drugs is more a matter of superiority in beating drug tests than it is lack of doping. I can’t prove this, of course, it just stands to reason that a lot of individuals have big financial and ego motivation to cheat, and so take advantage of it. Personally, I believe that people will naturally lie, cheat and steal to get ahead, and that only constant diligence (or fear of consequence) keeps most people from doing so.</p>

<p>In some countries the Olympic committee is independent (the US) in some others it is an arm of government (China). When the government forges documents to allow ineligible athletes to compete, that’s as bad as an individual or team cheating to win. I don’t see why anyone would disagree.</p>

<p>Sam, if you don’t think the government of China is Stalinist, I’d be glad to provide a few hundred links to mind-control techniques and human rights violations in China over the last 50 years. Heck, as a bonus, you name the time frame (any period after 1960 or so), and I’ll provide the citations. You won’t get a better deal anywhere. Do you know what Stalinism was about? If the term “Stalinism” bothers you, I’ll withdraw it. How about “oligarchical, totalitarian regime with severe restrictions on human rights and an active, effective control over the press, publishers, and the Internet.” Is that an improvement? It’s certainly accurate. Freedom of speech? No. Freedom to peaceably assemble? No. Freedom to practice a religion of choice without interference? No. Guarantee of due process? No. The only part of the Bill of Rights not regularly violated by the Chinese government is probably the Third Amendment, but I’m not even sure about that.</p>

<p>None of this means that the US is perfect. The Iraq war is deeply disturbing. The “Patriot Act” may be the biggest assault on personal freedoms since the pretty-complete defeat of civil rights violations in the south. </p>

<p>The biggest difference is that the US starts with individual human rights as the baseline, and deals with marginal intrusions on that, and in Communist China, the baseline is complete government control with any individual rights given as gifts from that government. If this isn’t how the Chinese government works, please educate me.</p>

[Hunt]

<p>But WashDad, to give the Chinese their due, they make very many useful household items at attractive prices. That’s why they’re our friends now.</p>

[ucsd_ucla_dad]

<p>

Freedom of speech? No. Freedom to peaceably assemble? No. Freedom to practice a religion of choice without interference? No.

Freedom of iPod? No.</p>

<p>

Apple’s online music store, iTunes, has become the latest victim of China’s censorship laws after the site was blocked apparently for offering Olympic athletes free downloads of a pro-Tibet music album.

</p>

<p>[Beijing</a> Olympics 2008: Apple iTunes falls victim of Chinese censorship - Telegraph](<a href=“http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2597405/Beijing-Olympics-2008-Apple-iTunes-falls-victim-of-Chinese-censorship.html]Beijing”>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/2597405/Beijing-Olympics-2008-Apple-iTunes-falls-victim-of-Chinese-censorship.html)</p>

[ellemenope]

<p>Interesting article in the LA Times this morning–forensic experts seem to think that it is easy enough to determine the difference between a 14 year old and a 16 year old through x-rays, etc.</p>

[ldmom06]

<p>^I’ve wondered about this. ldgirl suffers from scoliosis…in a Boston brace for several years. She underwent x-rays to assess change in her curve, bone maturity and to determine when bracing could stop.</p>