<p>We were all hard on Marion Jones. She is in jail now</p>
<p>“Now, really, to us, who HAS to win, the USA or China? Think about it brother, it might be a revelation. We are much more forcible with our ideals on the world than China is.”</p>
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<p>So, do you recommend we do jmilton? Take the Chinese gov’t at their word and ignore legitimate suspicious behavior (disappearing documents) and evidence of possible cheating? If we are going to ignore this, then why bother to dopetest. Let’s just ask the athletes if they took a banned substance and take their word for it when they say no.</p>
<p>I think Washdad said it exactly right. This isn’t about individual choices to cheat, but a government plan to cheat. Even allegations the USOC (as well as OCs of other countries) turned a blind eye to doping doesn’t rise to this level of government-sanctioned duplicity and cheating. When our Congress and Administration start involving themselves in creating a plan to cheat at the Olympics, then we will have something to compare.</p>
<p>And you are wrong about world reaction, at least in some parts of the world. As I mentioned previously, my husband is traveling in SA on business. The public outrage is there. (This last paragraph is not addressed to jmilton.)</p>
<p>Thank you, ldmom. I am running out of ways to explain this. </p>
<p>If anyone is wondering how I feel about anyone cheating at this level, please just read this I wrote in the “Other Side of the Olympics” two WEEKS ago – long before it was highly likely that the Chinese were violating age rules in gymnastics:</p>
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</p>
<p>Floyd Landis and Greek wrestlers - I don’t care about Floyd Landis or about the Greek wrestlers because I couldn’t care less about bicycle racing or about wrestling. One of the reasons that this age controversy has taken center stage is that gymnastics, particularly women’s gymnastics, is the single most popular sport in the Summer Games in the US (with the exception of swimming this year due to Michael Phelps). How many times have you seen televised the World Championships in wrestling? Or even the US Nationals? What cycling have you seen on TV except the Tour De France and the Olympics? Yet every year in the summer, I can turn on the TV and see gymnastics almost every weekend.</p>
<p>(Oh, and regarding the Landis thread - it’s one page - that means you haven’t noticed a whole lot of people jumping to his defense. Most of us think he should have had it stripped - no controversy. Without controversy, no long thread. Simple.)</p>
<p>The scandal has bigger “legs” than Landis or wrestling because people care about gymnastics.</p>
<p>Actually, I don’t care about gymnastics and spend three weeks every summer watching at least parts of the Tour de France daily. TWIAVBP. If the gymnastics scandal was just about doping, I doubt it would be that big a deal, either. It’s notable because it’s about cheating at the level of a government and not a sports group.</p>
<p>“(Oh, and regarding the Landis thread - it’s one page - that means you haven’t noticed a whole lot of people jumping to his defense. Most of us think he should have had it stripped - no controversy. Without controversy, no long thread. Simple.)”</p>
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<p>Exactly - not much arguing over a result with which most agree. Landis lost his title and was banned. He was punished, not allowed to thumb his nose at rules. And again, individual conduct is not the issue. If it’s true OCs are involved in coverups, then the Olympics are in jeopardy. But if institutional cheating is allowed to exist at the government level, then we might as well all go home.</p>
<p>what about the estimated thousands and hundreds of other American olympians in history that weren’t caught doping? Face it folks, we are testing a lot of positives now because simply, we are testing.</p>
<p>And you think the USA government doesn’t try their best to look the other way when they do? … This lack of perspective from us is really alarming.</p>
<p>You can feel righteous saying Americans have higher morals on these fronts, but is it founded? I’m not so sure.</p>
<p>again…I think the point is being missed (intentionally?). The question is what do we do about the possibility of an orchestrated plan to cheat at the governmental level? Do we do nothing? Do we go after individuals who dope, but ignore governments that lie? </p>
<p>Because right now…that’s what we are doing.</p>
<p>Or do we say honor and fair play should flow, from the top, down. My fear is Americans will care too much about being perceived as “sore losers” and allow this issue to fade. We are such suckers for that sort of redirection and the cheaters of the world know it.</p>
<p>I’m saying orchestrated cheating on the American government level is probably there. And ldmom06, you nor I am qualified enough to presume it to be false or true. We just have to have an open mind and not regurgitate news media commentary.</p>
<p>jmilton - I’m interested in your scenario where our government is involved in cheating at the Olympic Games. Could you flesh that one out for me?</p>
<p>If there was evidence of U.S. government cheating at the Olympics, the U.S. press wouldn’t cover it up. Can the Chinese press say the same?</p>
<p>The Chinese press is controlled by the government. How would investigative journalism work in a Stalinist country?</p>
<p>Which is worst:</p>
<p>USA government - Looking the other way when we find dopers.</p>
<p>China government - Looking the other way when the Chinese gymnatics coaches compete 14-15 year olds versus 16 year olds.</p>
<p>There is no evidence of Chinese government “conspiracy” to win at all costs, but obviously like the US, they would like to see their national athletes win. I mean, they know and we know, that China has joined the ranks of a world power in the last decade so they appreciate good representation.</p>
<p>I feel like I’m talking to a wall. All I’m saying is to have an open mind. I feel like being American and not automatically joining the China stoning bandwagon, I actually need to defend myself. Again, as far as we can tell, we are presuming the age of these children based on planted news media evidence. And again, Asians can look deceivingly young <— that point doesn’t sit well with most I can understand if they haven’t been traveling abroad.</p>
<p>What’s your evidence of the US government looking the other way when we find dopers? There is actual, documentary evidence that some of these Chinese gymnasts are underage. The evidence that exists creates a reasonable suspicion that the Chinese government has faked the identity documents of these athletes. If it turns out that they really are old enough, that’s fine with me.</p>
<p>Wall meet wall. I know the feeling jmilton.</p>
<p>As far as I can tell, we prosecute and jail dopers in this country. We don’t get them all and there is duplicity in the private sector, no doubt. But you are making a failed comparison. </p>
<p>I’m not ‘stoning’ anyone. All I’m saying is China should cooperate in an investigation instead standing in outrage that anyone dare question them. That’s it. If a transparent and legitimate investigation reveals no wrongdoing, then I’m a happy camper.</p>
<p>USA Government – doesn’t fund the USOC. Doesn’t have state ministry of sport. Doesn’t fund Olympic training. No government employees involved in the Olympics (except perhaps someone in State handling visas).</p>
<p>China Government – runs their Olympic program. Tests for athletic skills in children as young as 3 and 4. Runs sports training programs for kids. Pays athletes directly. Paid for the Olympic games directly (in the US this has never happened). Deeply committed to using the Olympics to show how “modern” China has become (remember that $300 million opening ceremony?)</p>
<p>In the US, the Olympics is a hobby run by private citizens and funded by a wide variety of sources. In China, the Olympics is part of the governmental propaganda effort. There is absolutely no comparison.</p>
<p>If you still don’t understand this, jmilton, I give up. Maybe ldmom can word it more clearly.</p>
<p>No…Washdad…you nailed it imho. 
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<p>But I would reiterate… the motivation to win is different between the countries as well. For US spectators, it’s as simple as rooting for the home team; for US athletes it’s pride in representing their countries, and yes, the financial payout at the end. Same can be said for Chinese spectators and athletes. But, for the Chinese gov’t, there is also that old Iron Curtain-like motivation of proving ‘their way’ of totalitarianism/communism is the superior way. And it’s not the rest of the world’s opinion they are trying to sway as much as that of their own people. In the US, we have long given up the idea of beating ‘the gov’t machine’. (Personally, my first recollection of this futility was the Munich games.)</p>
<p>Washdad,</p>
<p>Well, I guess comments like yours just prove my point. People like you are simply here masturbating yourself how your government is better…etc. Why don’t you join human rights organization or whatever instead of stating the obvious over and over. We know how their government runs their athletic programs. They’ve been doing it for decades. Are you being insecure about the US not finishing first in gold medal tally?</p>
<p>By the way, equating China today to “Stalinist country” shows how little you know about that country.</p>
<p>I’m wondering if maybe the IOC will drag the inquiry about the age of the gymnasts out until after the Olympics are over. That way, if they have to pull the gold medals, most of the Chinese population will never hear about it.
Sam Lee, are you deliberately pretending not to understand the distinction between individuals doping and evidence of a government faking IDs so underage athletes can break the rules? Attacking Washdad personally doesn’t make your point of view any more persuasive–to the contrary.</p>
<p>Sam Lee…the point is not who has the better system of government (though the Chinese obviously need to drive that one home, on a regular basis, to their own people). The point is gov’t involvement taints the competition.</p>
<p>And why are you taking issue with Washdad’s response to the false assertion by jmilton that the US government is involved in cheating on behalf of American athletes? He was merely pointing out the opportunity does not exist in the same way as in China.</p>
<p>And for that fact, I take jmilton’s defense that, allegedly, institutional cheating ALSO occurs at the US governmental level to be his acknowledgement that the Chinese government is cheating in this instance. So I’m encouraged we agree on one thing.</p>