<p>Was proving the age the subject (14 or 16), or are you talking about something else? You only quoted the last 2 sentences of my last post #215. And the last sentence was only for amusement. Did you see the smiley face? :-)</p>
<p>S’s 42 year old high school teacher was carded. It does not prove anything.
Deng Linlin is another one I doubt is 16.</p>
<p>People are still not convinced of government involvement in doping cover-up? I will give you a couple of examples.</p>
<p>1) When Ben Johnson was caught “cheating”, Canada held the Dublin Inquiry to get to the truth. Among the testimonies was the implication of certain American athletes. We thought the US government will start its own inquiry. Instead, the US government looked the other way.</p>
<p>2) Dr. Wade Exum quit his job as head of US Olympic Committee anti-doping chief in frustration. He reported that 19 US medalists were cleared for competition after testing positive, and that Carl Lewis was one of three Gold medalists tested positive for banned stimulants months before competition. He gave his report to the US media (not sure if it was ever published) and claimed that 50% of US athletes caught cheating escaped punishment. The US government looked the other way.</p>
<p>3) During the BALCO scandal, USADA discovered names lists and dosage plans among other things. The lists (apparently include world and Olympic champions), as far as I know, have not yet been made public. It looks to me like they are trying to sacrifice a few to protect the many.</p>
<p>Is this not sufficient evidence?</p>
<h1>203 by oranges</h1>
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<p>The Cold War between the US and the Soviet Union is over. There is no more CCCP. But there is still a CCP that tortures people in China. And the members of China Communist Party are operating in your New York City.</p>
<p><a href=“Audio%20record”>url=http://chinaview.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2008/05/28/auido-record-china-consul-general-admits-organizing-violent-mob-against-falun-gong-in-new-york/</a> China Consul General Admits Organizing Violent Mob Against Falun Gong in New York Status of Chinese People</p>
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<p><a href=“photos”>url=http://chinaview.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2008/05/22/photos-new-york-communist-china-directs-cultural-revolution-for-3-continuous-days/</a> New York: Communist China Directs “Cultural Revolution” for 4 Continuous Days Status of Chinese People</p>
<h1>223 Perhaps you are assigning a wrong responsibility to the American gov’t which is independent from the USOC, IOC and individual national and world sports federations. Why would our gov’t need to be involved, after the fact, if the federations and committees are taking appropriate measures to investigate and discipline these athletes? The burden of proof and statute of limitations for actual prosecution of laws is quite different than that required by a sports federation for disciplinary action.</h1>
<p>Again, all have agreed here, duplicity exists in the private sector in our own country, as well as others. But there is no orchestrated effort on the part of the United States government to cheat the youth of other countries of the just rewards for their hard work and sacrifice. Now, this may be true for China as well. All we ask is the Chinese gov’t cooperate with a legitimate and transparent investigation. Given they have seen fit to sanitize records on the internet, which is the opposite of cooperation imho, there will ALWAYS be lingering doubts. </p>
<p>I’ve mentioned my husband’s business dealings with the Chinese gov’t. To be more clear, he spent 2 weeks of every month, for about 12 years, in Beijing negotiating partnerships between an American oil company and CNOOC. He is extremely fond of the country, the people and his Chinese friends, as they are of him. But, he says this is a futile effort. He learned over the years, the only way to win on an negotiating issue is for there to be a way for the gov’t to seem like they are not losing. This cannot happen in the case of the Chinese gymnasts. So case closed, in his opinion.</p>
<p>^I am not sure what to make out of Falun Gong - grass roots movement or enemies of China supported agitators (according to some people). So unless there is a second independent confirmation of the information I usually try to take the information from them with a grain of salt. </p>
<p>However, this is only tangential to the op.</p>
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<p>I think this is where we differ. In my observation, this government vs private institutions thing is not a dichotomy but a continuum. This so-called separation can be easily breached if and when it is convenient. Just look at how the US Fed have successfully done so, using public money to bail out private institutions. More to come too, if you were to ask me.</p>
<p>Still not convinced? Remember when President Carter wanted to boycott the Moscow games and how quickly the USIOM co-operated? When President Bush wanted to attack Iraq the press, yes, even the liberal press felt in line without a whimper.</p>
<p>The government can do a lot to pressure institutions into compliance, inside or outside the law. The reason they have not done so is because 1) they don’t want to or, 2) they don’t care enough to.</p>
<p>I’m still perplexed by this discussion. I can understand that somebody might be offended that the ages of these gymnasts are being questioned, but does anybody really believe that it just can’t be true that their ID documents were altered? There is certainly a motive and opportunity, and some evidence that leads to reasonable suspicion. Those of you defending China, don’t you want this to be fully investigated so these athletes can be vindicated? If it isn’t fully investigated, I can tell you that people in the U.S. will always assume that they cheated.</p>
<p>Realistically, it isn’t a matter of whether some of us wanted an investigation, but rather, whether IOC or FIG has incentives to challenge birthdates on multiple official documents. As a matter of fact, the IOC probe wouldn’t have been launched if no medals were involved, since FIG has already dealt with the birthdates before the Olympics began. And as far as whether we might think the Chinese government has cheated, frankly, most people won’t give a damn, because (a) even Chinese don’t entirely trust their own government on trivial issues like birthdates; (b) the US government isn’t entirely trustworthy to the world either. So no matter where this investigation ends, it won’t change the general view of anybody, other than regarding the medals involved.</p>
<p>As your neighbor and a former student of Chinese Politics, I also find this “tempest in a teapot” discussion interesting.</p>
<p>StillGreen is right. If you can not get the US government to investigate what some called the greatest doping cover-up of all times, what chance is there the Chinese government will investigate the possibility that a couple of their athletes may be underage? They have more important problems to deal with.</p>
<p>As far as American attitude is concerned, I don’t think it matters. The Chinese have hardened a lot this past year because of Tibet, disruption of the torch relay…etc. Furthermore, America has little credibility left, in sports as well as in politics.</p>
<p>You may find the following BBC article interesting. It is an attempt by a British journalist to understand the Chinese position. I find many of the responses excellent, revealing a knowledge of China or the Chinese that I simply lack. Reminds me a lot of Israel’s response to foreign criticism as well.</p>
<p>[BBC</a> NEWS | The Reporters | James Reynolds’ China](<a href=“http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/jamesreynolds/2008/07/national_sentiment.html]BBC”>BBC - James Reynolds' China: National sentiment)</p>
<p>Canuckguy - thanks for the link.</p>
<p>Very good perspective from the other side.</p>
<p>Ah, the persecution complex is to blame. So it is unfair to investigate cheating because of it, hmm?</p>
<p>Bullocks.</p>
<p>Very interesting non-answers to my questions.</p>
<p>Interesting article:</p>
<p>[China’s</a> gold medals came at a high price - Los Angeles Times](<a href=“http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-fg-hardship26-2008aug26,0,2347697.story]China’s”>A high price for Chinese gold)</p>
<p>^ Does all anti-China Olympics commentary articles need to be so silly sounding and propagandaish?</p>
<p>^ Do you think the article is false?</p>
<p>Let me try again. </p>
<p>The Chinese government don’t care what the American audience think because there are more pressing problems for them to deal with. The Chinese people don’t care if Americans think they cheated because they know Americans have cheated all along. The rest of the world don’t care because they think the way the Chinese people do. How simple is that?</p>
<p>I like the James Reynold article because it shows the communication divide between the former colonial powers and China. It is a clash between Euro-centralism vs the hundred years of humiliation, or in more colourful terms, “White man’s burden” vs “Chinese holocaust”. (It strangely parallels the dialogue between whites and blacks in America. All you have to do is to replace hundred years of humiliation with slavery).</p>
<p>This awareness explains to me why, during the Indo-Chinese border clash, that Taiwan was reminding the US not to interfere with China’s internal affairs, much to the surprise of the State Department. It also explains to me the reaction of the Chinese Diaspora around the world over the issue of Tibet .</p>
<p>For me personally, I am more concern what will happen to Tibet and Xinjiang. Now that the Games are over, will the Chinese government attempt to “Israelize” those areas, seeing that liberalization has not worked?</p>
<p>Only time will tell, I guess.</p>
<p>
The rest of the world doesn’t care that China used underaged kids?</p>
<p>Not really. Look at the French articles posted earlier, there were at most two pages of comments. That shows you how much the French cares. By the way, China isn’t the only country that had ever done that. Other countries had done that too in the past Olympics. I bet a lot of Americans don’t know them and the primary reason was gold metals weren’t at stake. This undergrad thing received so much media coverage here simply because US was the one that got robbed. If this were underage kids in ping pong, the US media could care less. Maybe it’d be the South Korean media that relentlessly cover it in that case. If it doesn’t affect you, you don’t care. It’s just simple as that.</p>
<p>Ah! So the reasoning is this: other countries have cheated in the past, some individual athletes have cheated in the past, some people don’t care, and China feels picked on, therefore, no investigation should be done.</p>
<p>Again, bullocks.</p>