I’m still stuck on this … and would like to see some linke or pointers to articles on this. I am not claiming American culture is superior, in fact in many ways it’s full of vultures. With books, TV, and Pulitzer prizes to be won I don’t see <em>all</em> journalists keeping this scandal quiet … Salt Lake City bribes, Barry Bonds, Marion Jones, Justin Gatlin, Americans in the Tour de France, etc; all these stories were far from kept quiet … the press was all over them. I have faith in the self interests of the press to make more out of these stories than the underlying story (like is happening with the Chinese age thing now).</p>
<p>Just as an aside, the local news had a piece this morning on WOGA gymnast Rebecca Bross. She’s 15, but won’t be 16 until next year, thus too young to compete at the Olympics. Valeri Liukin said she is the third best gymnast in the country (behind Nastia and Shawn, but ahead of the rest of our Olympic team.) Might the results have been different with her on the team?</p>
<p>The news story said she trains 7 hours a day. So how is the age restriction protecting her from overtraining? She’ll just end up training that many hours a day (or more) for even more years than if she’d been born a year earlier.</p>
<p>So it appears to me that those of you defending China actually seem to think that the girls really are underage, but that nobody should care about it?</p>
<p>The age restriction provides very little protection from overtraining, in my opinion. What it does is it provides some protection from training for the Olympics. Because of the stakes involved in winning medals at the Olympics, the training was focused and intensified on those who had a chance at making the Olympic team. Since Bross had no chance at that because of age, the emphasis was off of her for this. All athletic training has its intense and taper. Those not going for the Olympics would not join that training regiment. Also the top coaches with Olympic hopefuls will be focused on those athletes, not as much on someone who is going to be on hold for another 4 years. But Olympic bound or not, gymnastics is the type of support that requires much training.</p>
<p>I’ll be interested to see whether China can come up with an all around winner by 2012. In the US, the girls really need to be all around gymnasts, at least until they’ve been on the senior circuit for a while. Alicia Sacremone didn’t even make the Olympic Trials in 2004 because she was trying to be an all around gymnast but was not good at bars. This time around she didn’t even attempt bars, and made the team. (So it works at 20 here but not necessarily at 16.) </p>
<p>The US could probably produce more event gold medalists if, from a young age, a girl was told, “Instead of practicing each apparatus for an hour a day, you are going to practice vault for four hours.” Will the US go in that direction, or will China take a few and maybe let them be 16 of 17 and learn to excel at all the events?</p>
<p>Hunt, why don’t we wait until the investigation is completed, then we will know for sure. What is the point of speculating now?</p>
<p>May I add a bit to the LA Times story? As far as I know, children are send to these schools with permission from the parents. They are not forced to go and they can leave anytime.</p>
<p>I would not want my kids in those schools either, but remember, I have options. Many of these kids do not. They are usually from poor families that see sports as a way out. (I can not see them having a prayer in hell in the national exams). This is their “hoop dream”. Failing this and they may well be stuck in the farm, forever.</p>
<p>The judo mama is Cantonese. At one time, Guangdong produced many of China’s top athletes. Now, as the province becomes wealthy, the provincial teams have to recruit elsewhere. (Parents with financial means want their kids to study instead, but with the tough exam systems there, I am not sure life is going to be much easier). </p>
<p>This year’s first gold medalist for China is a weight lifter, Chen Xuexia, a poor farm girl. After her victory, the TV reporter tried to interview her dad in her hometown and had to cut it short because he speaks Cantonese. For being the first she will make over 1 million dollars in prizes and endorsements, and have had the chance to travel the world. As a farm girl, not a chance.</p>
<p>Canuckguy, what about those you don’t make it? What other resources are available for them? Shouldn’t the government be equally spending money to make sure that they can also pass the exams? </p>
<p>I have been really concerned about the three years old who leave their parents to enter these sports institutes.</p>
<p>Please don’t put words into others’ mouth. I didn’t say you <em>shouldn’t</em> care. I don’t think Canuckguy said that either. I said if this were ping pong and no medals were at stake for the US, the US media wouldn’t care. You probably wouldn’t care, at least not as much. Is that true? People were pointing out what the reality is. It’s like if the middle east had no oil, would the US invade Iraq?</p>
<p>I would still care, because as I said, I think it’s naughty for a national government to issue fake IDs in order to cheat in an international athletic competition. Do you, or do you not, think it’s naughty for a national government to do that?</p>
<p>Yes, it’s naughty. I even told my Chinese friends how stupid they did that and they agreed the government “shouldn’t” have done that. But on the other hand, they sorta let it “slip by”. Don’t be so naive to think the Chinese feel it was totally fine. They are conflicted but its their country also.</p>
<p>First, Chinese don’t entirely trust their own government. So it wouldn’t be a surprise to them if the gymnasts involved were really underage. But the matter is outside their control and life goes on with more important issues to deal with. Second, to the Chinese government the birthdates are more than likely considered a matter of convenience. They may not even have verified the birthdates themselves (notice the high fraction of gymnasts borned in January). The analogy of this issue with how Americans deal with the speed limits of road traffic is somewhat appropriate. Third, are we solely dealing with the rules here or judging by public opinion? If it were by the rules, then just let the investigation run its course. But chances are some may not be satisfied, because FIG may not have enough incentive to proceed beyond multiple official documents. If it were by public opinion, then it can be anything, especially with the medals involved. Personally, I don’t believe the Chinese government played an active role in cheating with the birthdates. They just didn’t care about the birthdates to begin with. Nevertheless, they became actively involved after complaints were filed with the FIG and later the IOC. Under the current situation, the Chinese government would simply recertify the original birthdates to the end, regardless of whether they are indeed authentic.</p>
<p>It’s funny to think of what would happen if a 14 year old in the US was suddenly officially 16. I know MY daughter would go get her drivers’s license. And vote at “18” (16) and drink legally at “21” (19) and collect social security two years early, too.</p>
<p>Which is why there are so much confusion among Americans regarding China. For example, because of the poor backgrounds of many Chinese families, it isn’t uncommon for them to fudge the birthdates of their kids in gaining advancement or employment.</p>
<p>When people criticize China’s record in the areas of industrial safety or environmental quality, we’re often told that as a developing nation, China should really be compared to the US of maybe 100 years ago (Triangle Shirtwaist, anyone?)</p>
<p>I know that both of my grandfathers, both from poor families, “lied” about their age to serve in the military in WWI. Who knows if they presented poorly forged documents, or (more likely) simply lied when asked how old they were. It was a way off the farm, to see the world, to serve their country. They probably didn’t look old enough (both were thin and not very tall) but I doubt that anyone in the military cared. I would think that 90+ years later, it’s a bit harder to get into the US military at 15 or 16.</p>
<p>There are indeed similarities of how our great-grandparents struggled to build the US, and how the Chinese are struggling to build their country now.</p>
<p>My understanding is that recruiting starts in early school years. These students are usually spotted by teachers or local coaches. The successful candidates enrolled locally and stay at home. After a period of training, the best are invited to join county/city teams for further training and competition. This is the stage where the kids leave home. The best among them will likely be invited to join provincial teams. National competition is where the best among the provincial teams are spotted and invitations given to join the national side. </p>
<p>In this system, few makes it to the top. Most left or let go somewhere along the line. These places are really schools, except that schooling evolves around training and not the other way around. Clearly academics are secondary in importance.</p>
<p>At each stage the quality of amenities, training and competition increases. Once you make it to the national team, you get the best of everything. The result is that few ever leave voluntarily.</p>
<p>For those not good enough, I assume they return home and enroll in regular schools like the other students. I have no idea what happen if they fall behind academically. This would be a local issue and we don’t hear about it.</p>
<p>The feeling I have is that their academic institutions work in a similar way, although probably not this structured. I would be surprised if a student can jump from one track to the other easily. There have been posts on CC concerning “GauKau”…very serious business in China.</p>
<p>For national caliber athletes retiring from competition, things are not as cozy as before either. Apparently all the national teams are given budgets. They can only keep former athletes around for a while, while these folks are given some money by the state to make the adjustment to “civilian life”. After that they have to look after themselves, and not all of them made the adjustment successfully. I heard one of their former track stars was found selling candies on the street; a champion weigh lifter was working as a masseur in a bathhouse.</p>
<p>On the other end, some are wildly successful. Li Ning, who lit the Olympic flame, was a world and Olympic champion gymnast and a wealthy businessman. Deng Yaping, voted the best Chinese athlete of the republic, is a member of IOC and has a PH D from Cambridge. Then there is Fu Mingxia, their great diving champion, married the wealthy former Secretary of Finance in Hong Kong, and live happily ever after?</p>
<p>Some of the details may be wrong, but I think what I wrote is generally correct.</p>
<p>I am not sure about other sports, but in table tennis and badminton, many that did not make the national team or were drop from the national team ended up playing for other countries. Singapore, for example, won their first medal since 1960, from a table tennis team that is entirely Chinese raised and trained. Things will change though, because the ITTF has passed a rule that makes it hard, if not impossible, for a player to represent another country after the age of 21.</p>
<p>I find the Western press generally too harsh on the system, but sometimes too “positive”. I disagree with the LA Times that the athletes will be pushing to get more “freedom” from the coaches. I am only aware of two star athletes who have done so, and they are paying a price for it. The first is a table tennis player, He Jili, who refused to lose to a teammate in a world tournament, against the coach’s order. She also kept all the prize money to herself, instead of sharing some of it with her coach and practice partners. For this she was dropped from the national team. In retaliation, she married a Japanese and played for Japan, winning against Deng Yaping in the Asian Games where she was accused of shouting anti-Chinese slogans. She is presently divorced but still living in Japan. I can not think of anyone that Chinese sports fans hate more.</p>
<p>The other one is a former diving champion, the ex bf of Guo Jingjing. His crime was focusing too much time on doing endorsements instead of training. Like the previous one, he also kept all his earnings to himself. For that, he was also dropped from the team. He was trying for sometimes to work his way back but to no avail. Last heard he has given up hope and is trying to make it in the entertainment business. Without the stamp of approval from the government, how many Chinese companies want to take him on is a question I can not answer.</p>
<p>I think the system is not so much draconian as it is Orwellian. It is unlikely they would miss too many top talents that wanted it. Accusing them of forcing students into specific sports is unfair. Liu, their great hurdler, started as a high jumper. One of the gold medalist in Judo was in wrestling before. They are not exceptions.</p>
<p>None of their athletes are imports. They have Champions from all over the country (which tells me how thorough they comb for talent). The system works.</p>