<p>In the 2nd W campaign vs. Kerry, I fell for the what-we-need-now-is-stability-in-our-foreign-policies, and how electing anyone other than W would lead to terrorist attacks aplenty in the U.S., and a completely unstable Iraq that would lead to mid-east melt-down. Look what it got me.<br>
I expect the fear-mongering campaigning will begin soon from McCain…how he’ll keep us so much safer than the Dems… Instead of chanting “4 more years” will the McCain campaign be “100 more years”??</p>
<p>I think there will be chaos if leave tomorrow. I think there will be chaos if we leave in five years. So why not leave sooner?</p>
<p>“As a local Sunni sheik recently said in response to what will happen if the US pulls out: “I’ll be the first one to get out”.”</p>
<p>As well he would, since the democratic majority of the country will be Shia, and they won’t take kindly to a group of armed, anti-government terrorists running around the countryside, hijacking medical supplies being sent from Syria to Baghdad, and then being resold to the highest bidder.</p>
<p>Whoops! That’s not the future. That’s the chaos that exists now with a wink and a nod under General Betrayus, who is responsible for having armed Al-Qaeda with tens of millions of dollars in U.S. weapons, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of American soldiers.</p>
<p>No matter how oblivious some people wish to be about the successes in Iraq. Is it time to throw it all down the drain. LET’S QUIT!! That will work, Let’s just become isolationists. Sounds good ! Or better yet just move over one giant step into Afganistan and watch the chaos from there. That’ll work! Since Viet Nam , I’m tired ,no unwilling to cut and run. My friends will tell me when I’ve made a mistake but my true friends will know I made a mistake then stand beside me too see it through</p>
<p>“No matter how oblivious some people wish to be about the successes in Iraq.”</p>
<p>I don’t consider ethnic cleansing a success story. I don’t consider the looting of supplies meant for hospitals so that they are virtually empty of them, and people dying for lack of simple antibiotics, a success story. I don’t consider the cutting of electrical supplies to as little as two hours a day a success story. (I do consider what has happened in Basra, with the British gone and Americans afraid to leave the airport, an “interesting” story.) I don’t consider two million internally displaced people, and 80% unemployment AFTER U.S. reconstruction projects a success story. I don’t consider the arming of rogue Sunni Sheiks who will turn their guns on Americans at a moment’s notice a success story. I don’t consider the refusal of the U.S. to take in more than a handful of the 2.2 million permanently displaced Iraqis a success story, nor the refusal to provide significant aid to those countries who have. </p>
<p>I DO consider al-Sadr’s decision not to go to war YET a significant success story. He has all the time in the world, now that we’ve built him up.</p>
<p>Take it easy mini , I know code pink rhetoric when I see it. Do I disagree that a portion of Iraqi people have been displaced , no. Do I disagree that unemployment is high in Iraq again ,no. Could electricity improve , yes. Freedom is not free. Our own troops believe in their mission that it can be successful with time why can’t you believe in what a majority of these fine men & women have conveyed upon their return. We improved Germany & Japan after WWII. Helped Korea after that war it takes patience and fortitude. I know most Americans have these attributes our fighting men & women have it!!!</p>
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<p>Preemptive apologies for introducing facts into the discussion and discrediting a demagogic argument.</p>
<p>Via the National Journal’s January 4, 2008 cover story, [Data</a> Bomb](<a href=“http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/databomb/index.htm]Data”>http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/databomb/index.htm):</p>
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<p>Unfortunately, we broke it, now we own it. </p>
<p>The reality is that none of the presidential candidates will be able to do what they say they will. McCain won’t be able to “win” in Iraq, and Obama and Clinton won’t be able to pull out so quickly. Through this administration’s blunders, miscalculations, and the faiure to listen to the professional soldiers, we are stuck for the forseeable future. We have also put our nation at greater peril by committing the heart of our military force to Iraq, limiting the ability to react in other parts of the world. A draft is now not only the only way we will be able to build up the Army to the levels it needs to sustain operations in Iraq, and it may be the only way to ensure our future security. What a mess. Let’s try to elect some level of competency this time. This “right” vs “left” thing is tearing the country apart.</p>
<p>Before convenient amnesia metastasizes, a review of the [Iraq</a> War Joint Resolution<a href=“House:%20%5Burl=http://clerk.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.asp?year=2002&rollnumber=455]293/133[/url]%20Senate:%20[url=http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237]77/23[/url]”>/url</a> and the [url=<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePb6H-j51xE]historical”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePb6H-j51xE]historical</a> statements (via YouTube)](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059878879-post18.html]Iraq”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059878879-post18.html) of the war’s supporters (Albright, WJ Clinton, HR Clinton, Rockefeller, Edwards, et al.) would be appropriate.</p>
<p>So how much are you guys prepared to pay for your schemes? Current estimate of Iraq war cost = $2 Trillion. Are you ready to raise taxes enough to pay for your grand strategy? Or continue to operate under the Republican playbook of the past 30 years and just screw over our kids’ generation even more? It will take a draft to man the perpetual occupancy - you on board with that?</p>
<p>Was the outcome of the Viet Nam war any better for the extra years we stayed there? What makes you think Iraq is different? At some point you have to recognize that you can’t “win” no matter how much money and lives you throw at a problem. Gotta know when to fold 'em…</p>
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<p>I’m looking forward to the Republican transition…in the U.S.</p>
<p>"Was the outcome of the Viet Nam war any better for the extra years we stayed there? What makes you think Iraq is different? "</p>
<p>I’m glad you brought up Vietnam which is a classic case of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Vietnam was well on the way to pacification along the lines of a North and South Korea until the Democratic Congress pulled the plug on any further funding. Previous attempt to violate the truce by the North Vietnamese lead to a resumption of American bombing which low and behold worked to get the North back to the Paris talks. It was Nixon’s promise to the South that if the North violated the treaty and attacked the South that he would resume the bombing that got all three sides to agree.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, Congress had a different idea and took the position of today’s Dems - “who cares if there is a slaughter, we just want out”. After a period of relative peace the North tested the water with an attack. Seeing no response from the Americans and with the South without any funding support from the US, the North waged a fullscale, Soviet-backed conventional military attack on the South. The result was a massive slaughter and “re-education” of the South. </p>
<p>This is one of the darkest and most shameful periods of US history - one that the Dems want to repeat in Iraq. Unfortunately, Iraq is in a much more globally strategic location than Vietnam and if it does indeed spill over across the region the long term negative ramifications on the entire world could be huge. Of course, if this happens Obama will probably be forced to do what he said he would do - re-insert our military. Of course, re-inseretion will cost a lot more lives and money than keeping them there as they are now.</p>
<p>(#15) … (more than 600,000 [deaths] under General Betrayus between July and October alone)…</p>
<p>(#17) …Oh, so 600,000 <a href=“include%20tens%20of%20thousands%20of%20Christians”>deaths</a> rushing into exile as a result of General Betrayus isn’t “real ethnic cleansing”? .</p>
<h1>1 - NOT 600,000 deaths. 600,000 forced into exile in Syria, Jordan, and Iran between July and October 2007 alone. Source is the United Nations High Commission on Refugees - I’ve already posted it three times. Families - most of them highly educated and including doctors, lawyers, engineers, and teachers, and pro-Western - now so poor that, according to the report, many have young daughters going out for paid sex in order to bring money back to their families for food. A total of 2.2 million in exile. This makes Darfur look like child’s play.</h1>
<p>Nowhere did I cite the Lancet numbers.</p>
<p>I may be one of the few here to admit that I just don’t know what to do which would be in the best interests of the USA-Iraq-the mideast region. I do know that PNAC, who list Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and Elliott Abrams as Statement of Principles signatories, published an open letter on Jan 16, 1998 to Pres. Clinton urging the removal of Saddam Hussein from power using U.S. diplomatic, political, and military power.</p>
<p>What a coincidence!!!</p>
<p>“the faiure to listen to the professional soldiers” </p>
<p>This is what McCain was saying in the radio spot was one of the reasons we lost in Vietnam, and of course W repeated the folly in Iraq. Like firing Shinsecki (sp?) for telling the truth to Congress.</p>
<p>As far as the possibility of a draft and how much will it cost to beef up the military, there is very interesting reading in the July issue of ‘Foreign Affairs’ ([Foreign</a> Affairs - Home](<a href=“http://www.foreignaffairs.org%5DForeign”>http://www.foreignaffairs.org)) where Obama has an essay “Renewing American Leadership”. He wants to strengthen the military by adding 65,000 troops to the army and 27,000 to the marines, invest in equipmt, armor, training, incentives and training, increase funding to the National Guard, etc. He also states he would not hesitate to use unilateral force if necessary to protect US interests. Hardly sounds like Obama does it? And it sounds expensive.</p>
<p>ps - there is actually a lot of fairly good stuff in the Obama essay, which surprised me as it doesn’t sound like how he comes off on the campaign trail. He does say he wants the troops out of Iraq by next March, but then also says it would be a reasonable pull out, so if it can’t actually be done then the troops would stay where they are.</p>
<p>"“the faiure to listen to the professional soldiers” </p>
<p>Actually, it was listening to professional soldiers, in particular, General Betrayus in October 2004, that created most of the mess that followed, as did his arming of Al-Qaeda with tens of millions of dollars in U.S. weapons. </p>
<p>“What a coincidence!!!”</p>
<p>It was Clinton and the “experienced Democrats”, who, having seen the genocide fail, and two coup attempts fail, and negotiations with Chemical Ali break down, and the Clinton/Tenet Big Lie concocted, sponsored the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, specifically illegal under international law.</p>
<p>“A draft is now not only the only way we will be able to build up the Army to the levels it needs to sustain operations in Iraq, and it may be the only way to ensure our future security.”</p>
<p>I don’t think we should force Americans to enlist. If there aren’t enough Americans willing to enlist of their own free will, then we will have to live with the vulnerabilities that entails. We may find ourselves with cyclical arrangement: a 9/11-type attack, followed by enlistment swells, followed a few years later by enlistment depletions, followed by a 9/11-type attack… If Americans are uncomfortable with this scenario, perhaps we should enhance inducements to enlist, but we should never again abrogate the freedom of Americans to choose whether or not to serve in the military. </p>
<p>On the other hand, as a child of immigrants, one of whom was drafted prior to becoming a U.S. citizen, I might support requiring all immigrants to serve in some capacity (perhaps the older ones could do so publicly, not militarily) because I think it’s important for immigrants to demonstrate their commitment to the nation where they would like to reside and/or gain citizenship.</p>
<p>The perfect amnesty for ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Check in; sign up for a 4 year hitch in the US Military; automatic citizenship after finishing the military.</p>
<p>Makes too much sense. The government will never go for it.</p>
<p>Mini—David Petraeus is doing exactly what he and the rest of our nation’s miltary have sworn to do----obey the lawful orders of the commander in chief, achieve the military objectives he is given, and protect the men and women under his command to the best of his ability. To imply he is a “betrayer” of that oath by using that label is intellectually dishonest. The duty of our military leadership is to provide the CIC with the best information and advice possible and then to step back, let the civilian leadership make the decision (good or bad) and follow the orders given. Plenty of advise was given by senior generals throughout the Iraq war which was ignored or counter-manded. That happens. When the civilain leadership screws it up people die, but to infer that Gen Petraeus or his fellow military field commanders and the troops they command are somehow to blame for this mess you are off the mark.</p>
<p>“I don’t think we should force Americans to enlist. If there aren’t enough Americans willing to enlist of their own free will, then we will have to live with the vulnerabilities that entails.”</p>
<p>A nice thought except that history has shown that even in the most “justified” of wars a draft was a necessity for the United States. WW2 is a prime example, as over 10 million men were drafted between 1940 and 1945, and we did not engage in a nation-wide scale invasion and occupation until after June of 1944!!. If not enough men volunteered to fight Japan and the Nazi’s after Pearl Harbor, are you willing to assume enough will in a future crisis??? If you care about the well-being of todays all volunteer force, then a draft is needed. Young Americans of both genders should be required to serve just as we should have all been subjected to a 9/11 tax to fund the War on terror as soon as it was determined what this thing was going to cost.
Trust me, after 9/11 Americans would have overwhelmingly supported not only a war-time tax but a call for more volunteers to serve in the military, IF OUR COMMANDER IN CHIEF HAD ONLY ASKED. Instead he chose to do it on the cheap, without enough troops, and no visible means of funding the enterprise without blowing up the deficit.</p>
<p>The Liberal wing of the Democrats want to tax and spend .
The Neo-Con’s in the Republican Party just want to spend (look at the last 8 years).</p>
<p>BOTH are wrong.</p>