Is a Campus Tour Really Necessary?

Colleges & Universities Brown University
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<p>JRZMom: I’m going to try to visit as many colleges as I possibly can. </p>

<p>By the way, my mom told me that her friend’s daughter went to Wake Forest University in North Carolina, but when she graduated, she was $200,000 in debt. Her dad is a doctor, so I don’t know if she didn’t apply for any aid or what happened. The daughter said that it’s better to be an excellent student at an average university than it is to be an average student at an excellent university. I’d say that if a person can get into Harvard, it’s okay to be an average student. She also said that the high school that she attended (I go there now) doesn’t prepare you for college level classes. Should I be worried about that? She also said that Brown is full of “liberal hippies”. I was almost offended by that statement, but is she right? I’m sure that there are some, but it’s definitely not all. </p>

<p>I like Princeton, but because I would have to take two SAT Subject Tests, I can’t apply. I can’t even take them because the nearest testing location is about 6 hours away from where I live. I do like Princeton, though. A huge endowment is very nice, but Brown’s just different. I like it a little more.</p>

22

<p>Uroogla: Is there any way that I can get in touch with a Brown admissions officer before I apply so I can look at their FA offer?</p>

23

<p>I like Amherst, Tufts, and Yale. I’m pretty positive that I wouldn’t get into Stanford or Harvard. My chances of going to Yale aren’t great either. Thanks for the list, though.</p>

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<p>Cliffylove: I’m open to pretty much everything except for schools in the South. I’m not a big fan of hot weather. I do like the religious aspect of Notre Dame and Georgetown, though.</p>

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<p>Admissions doesn’t do financial aid - since Brown is need-blind, it’s done completely separately. One option would be to contact the financial aid office (you might be able to find contact information on the financial aid website), but I doubt they’d give you their offer. Someone above suggested you get information from your parents and plug the numbers into an online financial aid calculator. Unfortunately, this doesn’t take everything into account that Brown does. You can’t assume that you’ll receive that amount.</p>

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<p>“liberal hippies”= non-conformist, smart people.</p>

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<p>You can call the financial aid office, or send them an email. But look at the page I linked to above – if your family fits one of those samples, then that gives you a pretty good idea. If you find a financial aid calculator that uses the institutional method, that comes closer to how Brown would compute your need.</p>

<p>I promise you, if your family earns less than $60,000 and you have modest assets, you will not graduate from Brown with a $200,000 debt. Show your parents that link. If your family income is less than 60,000, then you might be OK applying to Brown ED.</p>

<p>I’ve known several people who attended small, rural high schools and went to selective schools. Most of them did very well, although there was an adjustment freshman year and they had to work hard. Some of them had to work very very hard. You might want to read a book called “A Hope in the Unseen” – it is a about an inner city student who went to Brown. His high school was anything but rigorous, and he struggled his first year at Brown. But he persevered, and graduated. </p>

<p>Brown has a writing center and tutoring that can give you lot of support. Also, because Brown has the option to take classes S/NC, that can be good for someone coming from a less rigorous high school. </p>

<p>Other schools to look at would be Wesleyan, Vassar and Smith. Oberlin and Macalester, too. Tufts is a similar size and environment as Brown. Smith has excellent financial aid. As for Georgetown, University of Chicago, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, UPenn and Johns Hopkins – all of which you mentioned – I don’t see much similarity between them and Brown, in terms of academics and campus feel. Amherst has an open curriculum but it small and remote. Swarthmore is much more intense academically than Brown.</p>

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<p>This is the kind of thread that you just don’t see that often in this world of helicopter parents and overprepared high schoolers. HelloImChelsea, I think the ideas that you and your parents have about elite colleges come from the way they are often portrayed in popular culture, rather than anything having to do with reality. Many applicants who post here have the benefit of a whole slew of people giving them the background on how admissions and financial aid work. What you need, I think, is something a little more general than this forum. The absolute ideal, to my mind, would be for you to be able to find a current student or recent graduate from a very elite school (i.e., one with needs-blind admission and a loan reduction policy for very low-income students) who is willing and lives close enough to you to sit down and discuss the whole world of applying to and financing an education at a school like Brown – I know it’s a remote possibility, but could you possibly find such a person?</p>

<p>Short of that, does anyone know of any general books or websites for someone from who doesn’t have access to good advice about the possibility of going to an elite college?</p>

<p>You’re doing an enormous service to yourself by coming here and asking about these schools, and I really hope you overcome your parents’ resistance to the unknown.</p>

<p>Anyway, I wanted to address a couple specific issues:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>It is an extremely persistent myth that more elite schools are more expensive to attend. I once was watching a news report about Brown having the happiest students in the country, on local Providence news, and one reporter said to the other, “well of course they’re happy! it costs so much to go to an Ivy League school like Brown, they all must come from really well-off families.” The amount of ignorance tied up in that little quotation is staggering, but it’s not atypical of the way people think of Ivy League schools. The truth is that, looking at pure tuition + fees figures, there are plenty of ‘non-elite’ schools that are more expensive than schools in the Ivy League. With the generous financial aid policies of the Ivy League and other elite schools, someone with limited resources like yourself is likely to pay much less than they would at non-elite private schools. There are thousands of very wealthy people donating unimaginable sums of money to schools like Brown so that people who wouldn’t otherwise be able to afford to attend can – take advantage of their generosity.</p></li>
<li><p>Your list of schools and your judgments about their selectivity seem like they might be based on things you’ve heard here and there, and it worries me a bit. The list you gave is a hodge-podge of schools that are not at all alike. Also, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Brown are squarely within the same selectivity range; plenty of people get into Harvard and not Brown or Yale, etc. You should not expect that you might get into Brown or Yale but outright reject the possibility of getting into Harvard or Stanford. Luckily, you have a lot of time to learn about schools before you make decisions about where to apply – I would suggest buying something like the Fiske Guide and seeing what peer schools it lists for the schools you’re interested in, and working from there. Some people here have already given you an idea of schools to start with. It is a bit of work, but it’s worth it in the end.</p></li>
<li><p>Finally, I’m curious – what attracts you so strongly to Brown?</p></li>
</ul>

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<p>Chelsea- all schools like Brown which claim to meet 100% of need have their own ways of calculating what your “need” actually is. Please realize that assets also count, not just income. Income of, say, 75k with a home that has appreciated, maybe a business, a few cars…all that can throw off your need. Educate yourself on a site like finaid.org; run their longer calculators which allow input for assets. Play it as many ways as you can. As you probably know, right now CC is full of surprised kids and parents who thought their income of X would win them far more aid. You cannot assume you will get the grant you need because someone else’s family had a similar income.
The thing your mom needs to check is often called tuition remission or tuition benefit. If you have trouble identifying this on her school’s web site, HR can inform you what the policy is. Some colleges offer a fixed dollar amount, depending on emloyment status and years of service; others offer a percentage of their own tuition. Still others are part of a consortium that trades tuition credit among members. Check this asap. And, understand that if there is such a policy, the dollar amount will be considered “family resources” and subtracted from need. Good Luck.</p>

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<p>mgcsinc and lookingforward, those are really good posts. I’d like to reiterate what mgcsinc said – for some students, the cost of some private colleges can be considerably less than even a state school – the $200,000+ pricetag looks very scary, but some schools discount that a lot. </p>

<p>Chelsea, I admire you for your determination to look at these schools despite resistance from your family. One of the best students I ever interviewed for Brown told me that everyone she knew – parents, siblings, teachers, guidance counselors, neighbors, friends – expected her to go to the local community college (they couldn’t even understand the benefits of the state flagship university). She was an amazing kid and she did get into Brown. </p>

<p>On the other hand, you do have to respect your parents and try to educate them without alienating them.</p>

<p>lookingforward makes a very good point about assets, but my guess based on the fact she lives in a remote rural location is that her family does not have an expensive house or huge assets. But she must make sure that when she runs those financial calculators, she inputs accurate info.</p>

<p>ETA: Chelsea, you are welcome to PM me anytime for more information.</p>

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<p>Chelsea, I am gooing to take these items point by point.</p>

<ol>
<li> The friend whose father was a Dr and graduated 200k in debt either had a father who had very few patients making appointments, or her parents had her pay for her college on her own, by taking out loans. I realize there are many types of practices and specialties within medicine. Is it possible the Dr father was in one of the lesser-paying ones? </li>
</ol>

<p>If, on the other hand, the doctor parent had an income of 200-300-k or higher, as many do (especially in certain specialties), then probably they were not eligible for aid and the parents decided the girl was going to pay for her own education. Or perhaps they had a lot of “consumer debt” such as boat & car loans and lacked cash flow for tuition. </p>

<p>Consumer debt does not count when calculating financial aid. “Consumer debt” is debt for things like pleasure boats (not your fishing boat if you fish for a living), car loans, charge cards, etc. First-house mortgages, tuition for other children in school, and medical bills do count and are subtracted from income available for college.</p>

<p>Every family’s financial picture is different. One family may be earning more than 200k, but because one of their kids has an expensive medical condition and there are 6 other children, they are determined to have greater need than the family down the street with the same income, but only one (healthy) child. </p>

<p>“Need” is also related to the cost of attending the school in which you are enrolled. If my daughter attends our state univ, she will have way less “need” than if she is accepted into, say, Brown, and decides to go there. There is close to a 30k difference per year between the two schools. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>I agree with you on the “It’s better to be an “average” student at Harvard” point! The fact that someone gets into Harvard at all means they are already an excellent student. But if you can’t get into Harvard, be an excellent student no matter where you land!</p></li>
<li><p>On the “liberal hippies” at Brown — Did you know that Bobby Jindal, the GOP governor of Louisiana, is a Brown alum? And Brown does have its chapters of Young Republicans, et al. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Brown is like any other university — because of the age group of 98% of the undergraduates, many of them are more liberal politically than they will ever be in the rest of their lives. The late teens and early twenties are when the brain develops the ability to be idealistic and altruistic in a way it has not yet achieved. That is why college students are extremely intense in their political views, tend to be heavily represented at demonstrations, and so on (also they don’t have babies to take care of yet). If they are conservative, they are very conservative—if they lean left, they lean as far left as they can get.</p>

<p>If you visit any college, not just Brown, and take a good look around, you will find plenty of left leaning students, and plenty of rightward ones, too. Most of the students are not extremely strong in either direction but are instead bending their minds to making it through organic chem or the engineering program! It’s the noisiest ones that tend to get into the papers.</p>

<p>Brown has its share of leftward students and profs — but it also will give you a top education and you will be challenged to think your way through whatever your positions are. Would you rather go to a school where everyone parked firmly in their comfort zones and never challenged each other to think?</p>

<ol>
<li><p>If the high school you are in does not prepare you for college level classes, what about your local commmunity college? Can you take some courses at night or during the summer there? What about online college courses? Be original and make some opportunities for yourself, if they are lacking at your school — it will add to your education, and this is the kind of student Brown and its ilk are looking for. </p></li>
<li><p>The nearest testing location for the SAT subject tests is 6 hours from your home? Where are you going to take the SATs? Doesn’t your high school offer them? If they do, they should also be offering the Subject tests. Look hard at the calendar, the one at the Educational Testing Service’s website.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>What year are you in, at high school? Have you thought of going to the Guidance Office and asking if they will also offer the Subject tests, next year or the year after? What about you and the other ten top students in the class doing that together? You need those tests, in order to appply to the schools for which you are suited (and that includes schools in Missouri, too, eg Washington Univ). What about one of the h.s. in your county offering these tests, as a regional service, for the more competitive students? You might be able to start a trend (acting like this is what Brown students do — if there is a wall, find a way over or around it. Don’t sit there pointing at the wall). </p>

<ol>
<li>As another said, Brown’s admissions office knows nothing about what their financial aid to you might be. And they do not do those calculations until the admissions office sends over the list of accepted students. You are nowhere near applying yet. A school that recieves 30k applications and accepts around 9% of them is not going to ask their FA office to calculate the aid for all those folks who are not going to be accepted. </li>
</ol>

<p>Also, until your family submits the FAFSA and CSS profile, there is no way anyone at Brown could answer that question for you. </p>

<p>Rest assured, a family whose income is around 60-70k is not going to be expected by Brown (or any other school) to pay very much of a 50k/yr bill! Brown can afford to aid you from their own coffers. Smaller schools will small endowments cannot; they will tell you to borrow the money (Be like Willie Sutton and go where the money is). </p>

<ol>
<li> Regarding aid, please go to this site:
[Student</a> Aid on the Web](<a href=“http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/index.jsp]Student”>http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/index.jsp)</li>
</ol>

<p>[Home</a> - FAFSA on the Web-Federal Student Aid](<a href=“http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/]Home”>http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/) and here is the FAFSA site</p>

<p>and you and your folks read through the excellent advice on this large portal your tax dollars have given you!</p>

<ol>
<li>You mention Georgetown (which also can afford to aid you) and Notre Dame, and Amherst, Tufts, and Yale. Have you been to the online course catalogs at any of these schools? It would be a good idea if you started checking these out carefully. They are all terrific schools but also very different from each other. They are also some of the toughest schools to get into—what are your grades etc like?</li>
</ol>

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<p>JRZMom: I’m an A student. I make sure of that. </p>

<p>The girl whose dad was doctor was an OB/GYN. </p>

<p>Yes, I did know that Bobby Jindal graduated from Brown. I admire him politically. </p>

<p>I’ve been talking to my guidance counselor. I need to e-mail him again sometime. No one takes the SAT at my school. This year, one girl did. She was literally the first one to take it. Fortunately, she’s one of my good friends and she gave me a lot of advice. I know that she had to go somewhere kind of far away to take the SAT. I’ll have to ask. </p>

<p>I’m going to double up on a few classes next year and my senior year. I’m going to try to get my practical art credit waived. I would take it in summer school, but, of course, the funding was cut. </p>

<p>I want to be challenged. I like accomplishing difficult tasks. I’m determined to prove people wrong.</p>

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<p>Chelsea, you are the type of student who parents on CC love to help. </p>

<p>I looked at the SAT website and searched for Missouri test sites, and then plugged them into google maps. There seem to be a lot of test sites, and although there are none in the northeast, that’s not too far from St. Louis and Columbia – certainly not 6 hours away.</p>

<p>Brown, like most colleges, always looks at the student in context of their high school. They don’t expect a student from an impoverished, small rural or inner-city school to have the same extracurriculars and curriculum choices as a student from an affluent suburb. They look for students who have limited options, and who make the best of them, and work hard to find their own opportunities. My point is, don’t fret too much about your school’s limited options affecting the impression colleges have of you. And JRZMom makes some good suggestions for how to expand your opportunities.</p>

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<p>Chelsea–</p>

<p>[SAT</a> - College Board - The Most Widely Used College Admission Exam](<a href=“http://sat.collegeboard.com/home]SAT”>http://sat.collegeboard.com/home)</p>

<p>You can have “The SAT Ques of the Day” sent to your email address for practice. You can also use this site for help setting up a “study plan” for preparing yourself for the SAT — which might not be a bad idea. You seem not to have had a lot of experience with this kind of test. Open an account on the site so you can access their very helpful material.</p>

<p>The SAT used to be called an aptitude test, which was inaccurate. But they still act like it is. They have their own question-writing style, and you will do much better on their exams if you get familiar with it. When I was a child, we called it a game — they tried to trip us up, and we tried to beat them. </p>

<p>Maybe that is a little cynical but we were ten year old New Jerseyans so it came naturally. </p>

<p>The ACT, which is more common in your neck of the woods, tests actual knowledge and does not engage in clever questions or punish you for guessing. Brown & other schools are happy to receive ACT scores, too. </p>

<p>You can purchase ACT & SAT prep books via Amazon & I think it would be a very good idea for you to do that. You can also go to the nearest Barnes & Noble, etc and get them there. If “Nearest B & N” is a joke, then use Amazon. Work your way through the book/s and take the practice tests. If you can’t open an account at Amazon & your parents are hesitant, go to your best h.s. teachers and ask them to buy the book/s; give them the cash for them. Don’t worry; they are buying from Amazon in their home lives and have accounts there (how I did a lot of my Christmas shopping!).</p>

<p>[ACT</a> Test Prep](<a href=“ACT Test Preparation | Test Prep Resources | ACT”>ACT Test Preparation | Test Prep Resources | ACT) Here is the site of the ACT. You will see the free tips, practice questions, etc. Use them! Free is good!</p>

<p>Atta girl, on the “proving people wrong”! Keep it up! </p>

<p>What have you got where you are in the way of community colleges? What about taking online courses? Does the MO state univ system offer any online oportunities for students like you? </p>

<p>.checking…Yes, they do! AND you can take AP courses online, from Mizzou! Have a look:</p>

<p>[AP</a> Courses | Advanced Placement Courses](<a href=“http://cdis.missouri.edu/advanced-placement-courses.aspx]AP”>http://cdis.missouri.edu/advanced-placement-courses.aspx)</p>

<p>[Gifted</a> Program | Gifted Students](<a href=“http://cdis.missouri.edu/gifted-courses.aspx]Gifted”>http://cdis.missouri.edu/gifted-courses.aspx) And “gifted and talented” courses, too. Just checked the social studies tab and they are mostly the online AP courses. Plus Ancient Egypt and Medieval History. </p>

<p>[Distance</a> Learning | High School | Student Services | MU CDIS](<a href=“http://cdis.missouri.edu/high-school-students.aspx]Distance”>http://cdis.missouri.edu/high-school-students.aspx) I have been looking all over their high school section & I cannot find a word about them wanting you to pay them anything. Looks like your tax dollars are working for you. </p>

<p>There are some forms you have to have your h.s. guidance couns fill out. </p>

<p>Next time you post, I hope you are saying you have been to Mizzou’s online h.s. courses site & are enrolling in whatever your h.s. is not offering you! Go get em!</p>

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<p>fireandrain: Thanks, I must’ve overlooked that. I will PM you anytime. I appreciate your faith in me and your desire to help me. </p>

<p>I was just planning on taking the ACT and maybe the SAT Subject Tests, but is it worth it to take the SAT? I’m just asking because if the SAT is simpler than the ACT, then I’ll definitely see about taking it.</p>

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<p>JRZMom: I got Barron’s 36 a few days ago and I’m working my way through it. My parents aren’t neglecting me or anything. They just think it’s more practical to go to an in-state university that’s close to home. </p>

<p>The SAT seems a little more difficult than the ACT because it tries to trick you, but maybe it isn’t that bad.</p>

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<p>mgcsinc: I would love to sit down and talk to a Brown student/graduate, but I wouldn’t even know where to begin.</p>

<p>You’re right! Just because a school is highly ranked doesn’t mean that it’s expensive. My favorite quote is: “If there’s a will, there’s a way.” </p>

<p>I know that my list of schools don’t really have anything to do with each other, but I like them for different reasons and I’d be happy at any of them.</p>

<p>I like Brown because of the open curriculum. I’m fascinated that you’re allowed to explore different areas of study. That is what mainly sets it apart from all the other universities. I like how much freedom students are allowed. I’m in love with their International Relations program and Political Science department. I love all the little quirky things and traditions. I think the midnight organ concerts sound like a blast! I love the campus. It looks beautiful. I love that Ruth J. Simmons is both African-American and a woman. I think that it’s great she’s in that position of power. I know that she won’t be President forever, but I still am happy about that. I also think it’s cool that Brown has the happiest students in the country!</p>

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<p>fireandrain: Thanks for giving me encouragement. I’m not going to give up!</p>

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<p>Chelsea – many students do better on one or the other of the SAT–ACT, because the tests have such different styles. My own daughter liked the ACT much more. Her scores showed it. “Easy” is not the right word, but perhaps “straightforward” works. </p>

<p>You might be able to find some recent Brown grads thorugh the alumni network in Missouri. If you go to Brown’ Alumni Assoc webpages you will find the regional Brown Clubs; MO has a Kansas C. & a St Louis branch and also a statewide contact. </p>

<p>[BAA</a> - Community: Clubs in US Midwest](<a href=“Communities & Interests | Alumni & Friends | Brown University”>Communities & Interests | Alumni & Friends | Brown University)</p>

<p>You could contact these folks to ask if there are any alums in the area with whom you could speak. The regional Brown clubs also host things like lectures by traveling professors & the like and you would be able to meet alums at such events. </p>

<p>The same is probably true of the alumni associatoions of any of the schools which you have mentioned—go to their sites and find the alumni services or associations or whatever they call theirs, and poke around on the pages until you find the regional listings. </p>

<p>Whether or not you wind up at Brown, you have determination and spirit and you are going to do very well no matter what! Keep it up!</p>

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<p>JRZMom: I’ll probably take both. </p>

<p>I’ll look through the alumni list. Surely I’ll find someone. Thanks for finding the link, too. It seems like there’s an answer to all of my questions!</p>

<p>I hope my “Why Brown” statement doesn’t sound too generic. I’m going to be honest, but I’m a big fan of simplicity, so it won’t be anything fancy. I’ll try to end up in Providence, but I’ll just have to do my best and hope it’s enough. </p>

<p>Thanks for all of your time and your advice. You’ve helped me so much!</p>