I read that Princeton has notorious grade deflation (lowest average GPAs amongst the ivies) despite supposedly ending the grade deflation policy a couple years ago. Seeing as medical schools heavily value undergraduate GPA in admissions, is it generally a bad idea to try the pre med track at Princeton?
never heard Ivies have grade deflation, but grade inflation. U of Chicago and Purdue have grade deflation
@TritoneSubNico you should google real talk princeton (a student run tumblr site, one of the main contributors “Nick” has documented his Princeton to med school experiences - just use their search bar for “medical school”). According to nick, Princeton grads get a slight GPA adjustment, and his lab work / internships were critical. All that said, if you have great test scores and good medical related ECs, a non-premed major might make life easier for you at Princeton.
Princeton still has a slight deflation as a leftover from the strict deflation policy they ended a few years back so you get a slight adjustment. It still means you need ~3.7 (meaning top 40% :p).
IMHO Pre-Med Medical track at Princeton:
Of course, a pre-med track at Princeton is achievable…however…there are a few things to consider. You must truly understand your strengths and pick a major accordingly (if you choose science or math, then that means you are significantly strong in those areas and have won awards, not just because you made A’s in high school–everyone did), sketch out your four years of courses ahead of time while understanding the need for flexibility and focusing on lab-time/course work loads. Choose your courses carefully, based on student reviews and work balance, and prioritize, block out and actually schedule your work time/social time utilizing a high level of self-discipline. Pay strong attention to acceptance time tables for internships/scholarships regarding applications for specific programs and grants/financing. Carve out and help to build a social circle niche quickly and continue to grow your niches…this is one of the most significant experiences you will have at Princeton. Finding your social path is as challenging and rewarding as is finding your academic path, no matter who you are or what socio/economic life you’ve experienced. If you find yourself struggling or feeling a challenge causing you undue stress for anything, access help quickly…whether it is writing, subject matter tutoring, socially, illness (this is a big one, don’t let an illness derail you, get treated quickly at the health center…if you feel you can’t be treated there, take an Uber to an outside medical source).
These are my observations as a Princeton parent of recent graduates and of their fellow classmates. Princeton does not have grade inflation. Period. The kids who choose to seek out Princeton and are accepted are highly driven and highly capable; that in and of itself will lead to a student body with a higher than average national median GPA. That being said, Princeton makes it so students have to reach higher, deeper, and work harder than they’ve ever worked to achieve an “A”. And these are kids who have worked hard prior to Princeton. I don’t know of one Princeton student who did not express being humbled, knocked down a few pegs and thoroughly put through the wringer at some point. As well, it is clear students come out with the strongest sense of pride and the strongest of bonds from their fellow classmates which is directly tied to their Princeton experiences (not just because of the name brand).
I think there are several considerations and reasons for difficulties with being pre-med at Princeton:
Most pre-meds at Princeton do not go to medical school directly from Princeton. They take the next year to study for the MCAT, get practical healthcare related internship experience, and/or do a post-bacc program. There is so much to be involved in at Princeton, it’s very difficult to access much of what there is offered and maintain a typical premed calendar. As well, for the students admitted to Princeton, they not only had the grades and the entrance exam scores to be admitted, they also had a long-term passion they pursued and are continuing or expected to continue pursuing during their time at Princeton.
Course considerations: Many pre-meds go into science majors as they did well in high school in science classes and see a perceived overlap of pre-med courses with science major courses. So students are not only battling a stringent grade distribution of pre-med courses, but also their major. Like all science courses/majors in many universities, the grades earned from those courses tend to produce a lower GPA average, given the tests are more quantifiable than in other majors. And, at Princeton, the science courses are often theory based and require an extraordinarily high level of understanding. As well, there are lab time issues. Science courses require labs and labs are extraordinarily time consuming. If a student has other commitments, the labs will conflict. So great care has to be given to prioritizing goals. If a student’s passion is in science, the science/engineering premed lab times may work for them. If their passion is elsewhere, a non-science major may work better because they won’t be ham-stringed by the frequency and length of the lab times.
Issues with studying for the MCAT at Princeton: Princeton requires two Junior papers, each receiving a course grade, while taking a standard course schedule along with a thesis in their Senior year which counts as two grades. The thesis requires many many hours of research and study, a bulk of which occurs during the summer prior to their Senior year, which has to be written, presented and defended by the end of their Senior year. When students from other universities are studying for MCATs, Princeton students are working on their Junior papers and Senior thesis.
Other considerations: As the semesters progress and the mid-terms/papers are turned in, a student often does not know what the grade received means and how it will fall out regarding a final grade until after the term ends. It causes a high level of stress that is constant. This method causes students to work their hardest and deepest at all times, to explore beyond what is just discussed in class and to research independently and draw in-depth conclusions. If a student’s level of in-depth production causes them to have learned more than they’ve ever learned but still receive a “B” as compared to another student who may have had a stronger prior-foundation in the course work, then that’s fair–this student will still come out with a nice GPA and a better future professional for it. This may be great for the learning process, but if you have a group of type-A students whose ability to go, go, go deeper for all classes in a term is strong because they won’t know where the bar stands or their position in relation to it until after the term is over, first, creates a lot of hyper-stressed students, second can psychologically derail medical school aspirations, and third can kill a pre-med, pre-law or internship GPA.
Ways to successfully be pre-med at Princeton: If your passion is science and part of your Princeton application process was based on national and international science awards, go full force with your science interests. Otherwise, pursue the non-science non-quantitative major and courses that will yield you the highest GPA. Carefully pick your courses using the advise from different sources of upper classmates. Consider taking Organic Chemistry and Physics at another university during the summer. Access the Health Professions Advising Center. They won’t hold your hand, but the information is straight forward and can help as you make your decisions. You will not get letters of recommendations or support to medical school unless you have a certain GPA.
If you are involved heavily in an extracurricular and are interested in balancing that with academics and the social aspects of Princeton and are pursuing pre-med, I would recommend considering not doing pre-med courses at Princeton, but getting as high a GPA as possible in a non-science major, do internships/study abroad /volunteer abroad programs, access as many of the opportunities available to students and then after graduation doing a post-bacc program at another university that allows you to take the pre-med courses and study for the MCAT. Some post-bacc programs have a direct linkage to medical schools.
If you know you want to go to medical school at all costs and want to go directly from college to medical school, then I would not recommend going to Princeton.
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@dragonkids - Only those students who won national or international science awards in high school can expect to excel in science at Princeton?
I disagree. Case in point: my son never competed in, much less won, any HS science competitions. Upon acceptance he debated between majoring in Physics and Philosophy, chose Physics, and despite the time commitment of competing as a four year varsity athlete, graduated magna cum laude.
If medical school had been his goal, I’m confident he would have had many fine options.
I agree with much of the points made by dragonkids. I will try to add some context to his points. Molecular Biology, Ecology & Evolutionary Biology, and Neuroscience are popular premed majors. Harvard Medical School states that they want students that “demonstrate aptitude in the biological and physical sciences during their undergraduate years, but not to the exclusion of the humanities and social sciences.” Most medical schools accept applicants from a variety of majors.
Molecular Biology juniors writing a laboratory-based senior thesis are invited to participate in the Summer Undergraduate Research Program. Each student joins a world-class research group – headed by a faculty member – and carries out an original research project. Participants are immersed in a culture of close collaboration with other undergraduates, graduate students, postdoctoral fellows, and faculty, and thereby experience first-hand what it is like to be a scientist. There are weekly seminars by the Princeton faculty and career seminars. Participants present their research findings to respected scientists. Over half of the molecular biology majors become paid researchers through this program while attending Princeton.
There has been a trend for premed students to take a gap year before starting med school. Many students choose to take a gap year before they start med school and the additional three to five years required for an internship and fellowship. It appears that perhaps 60% of med students are now taking one or more gap years. See: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2015/2/25/medical-applicants-time-off/ and https://â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– â– /threads/efles-matriculating-student-survey-highlights-fun-facts-and-demographics.1234313/ . Princeton premed students have the opportunity to obtain one year fellowships in healthcare setting paid for by Princeton related institutions. For example, Princeton Project 55 plans to place fellows in about 30 public-health non-profits each year.
The junior papers and senior thesis enable a student to work extensively with a senior faculty member. The professors get to know the student well and are in a position to write a detailed and personal letter of recommendation for med school. I had classmates that were admitted to med school having participated in varsity sports and other time consuming activities like theater and the student newspaper. Over a recent five year period between 91 per cent and 95 per cent of medical school applicants from Princeton were admitted to medical school.
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Sherpa: I’m sorry if there is a misunderstanding. Of course science courses can be successfully taken at Princeton by anyone admitted. My child did so and was successful. This is addressing premed, athletic and a science major. Your child did not pursue premed courses on top of the science major while playing a sport. Premed courses on top of science major courses make it a different ballgame. My child was successful while competing athletically all four years. Had it been either premed/humanities-major or science-major/no premed, the stress would have been significantly less. For many of the premed student athletes who majored in a science and who were the most successful, heading straight to med school, they didn’t actually play their sport all four years. They stayed on the team but didn’t go to practice or travel for competition. And those that did continue to compete and maintain a high GPA, gave up their social life and will be taking a gap year or two. And some gave up both athletics and their social life. As has been said many times in this forum for premed student athletes, you can have two of the following: academics, athletics, social life…you can’t have all three without an inordinate amount of stress. There are student athlete premed graduates who came through it all, but are very angry at the price to obtain that success.
And I’m sure the 91-95% figure after five years for premed acceptance into medical school is accurate as the weed out is strong and the school won’t support those who are not clear to be accepted, but how many of those had to do a post-bacc program, adding 1-2 years more of schooling and costs?
And regarding thesis advisors and graduate students. Some students have a great experience and some do not. Once again, pick carefully, and make sure it’s a good fit.
After all is said and done, my kids would not have picked another college. And their friends that are angry, still come back for reunions.
That’s a bold claim. Have you seen his transcript? And aside from organic chemistry, which, incidentally, he did take, what courses are the “premed courses” to which you refer?
I’ve learned in sports, if it wasn’t experienced, it can’t be said it was experienced in context, therefore there is no comparison and the point is mute.
I do not wish to bicker, Sherpa, as your posts over the years were highly beneficial to helping my kids when entering their journey. Having come out the other side, I think its important to shed different perspectives, especially for premed student-athletes at Princeton. The issue is difficult at any Division I institution and some colleges do it better and some do it worse. Much is also dependent on support of the team and the coach. I think it’s important to give students as much information as possible so they can make the right decisions for their situation. As I said before, my kids experienced the highest of highs, but absolutely, the lowest of lows—and that can be said for each of their student-athlete friends. My interest is having the lows and struggles to not be so low for future Tigers. The opportunities are boundless and the depths of friendship deep.
And once again, Sherpa, thank you for your input into the recruiting process over the years.
You’re welcome.