Is a six figure salary from a third tier law school possible?

Graduate School Law School
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<p>The surveys aren’t filled out by the “schools,” they’re filled out by professors. Not the same administrators who give them the misleading salary info. I’d like to hear how the schools are “bending the truth” on surveys filled out by practicing lawyers and judges. </p>

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<p>I’m pretty sure Georgetown is the only T14 with a part-time program, so if anybody is “bending the truth,” it’s the lower-ranked schools with huge PT programs full of students with inferior stats. </p>

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<p>Plenty of people question the USNews rankings. Even the schools themselves question the rankings. They just usually present a reasoned critique, not a denunciation of anyone who doesn’t reject the rankings as a total sham. </p>

<p>And the question isn’t really about the rankings, but what sort of employment prospects graduates of the schools ranked in the third tier (whether they’re ranked there because of some evil conspiracy or whatever) have. The reality is that they aren’t that great, and if the goal is to make six figures upon graduation, a third-tier school is not a good bet.</p>

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<p>OT, please learn how to quote so it’s easier for us to follow this discussion.</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/619666-how-can-i-quote-previous-posts-my-replies.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/619666-how-can-i-quote-previous-posts-my-replies.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>“So you mean T-14 plus regional schools? That’s been said on this forum all along. Or do you mean all the ABA approved schools? There’s a difference.” </p>

<p>I don’t know, is Oklahoma City University School of Law a regional or third-tier school? Pace? Duquesne? University of Kentucky? Franklin Pierce? Wayne State? Western New England? It’s a sincere question; I don’t know where you draw the line. But these firms cast their nets wide in looking for talent. They have to – they’re freaking huge.</p>

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<p>They don’t really. It’s not that unusual for large NYC firms to get 40% of their incoming associates from just three schools (usually Harvard, Columbia and NYU).</p>

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<p>johnshade - look carefully at the people at Skadden from Okahoma City, Pace, University of Kentucky - there are just a handful from these schools and several are staff attorneys. Skadden also has an interesting hiring past. Another late comer, that takes it out of the real “white shoe” category. It’s claim to fame came in the tender offer, hostile takeover craze of the 70s and 80s. They were one of the firms responsible for changing the practice of law into a more competitive business and some considered its fees a bit obscene. In its growth spurt, they couldn’t hire fast enough and it really was not that hard to get in there - they looked at people a bit off the radar of many other firms. We used to joke that you could get a job at Skadden if you could spell the word “takeover.” The managing partner is a Hofstra grad, and yet, they still only have 4 other attorneys from Hofstra, two of whom are staff attorneys. Now look at the numbers from Columbia and Harvard - pages of them.</p>

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<p>Yes. I’m tired of responding to THE ROCK (Shantytown) but I just wanted to verify that GULC is indeed the ONLY T-14 that has a part-time program, and USNews may include its part-time numbers in next year’s edition of the rankings. People have been contemplating that GULC may drop from the T-14 for awhile now partly because it has a part-time program…although I doubt it will happen next year.</p>

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<p>I am posting merely to clarify, since the tone of this thread is such that I do not care to participate any longer.</p>

<p>It was said that:</p>

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<p>I would not agree that a lawyer from a second or third tier law school that gets hired by a biglaw firm stands no chance to make partner. The difficulty for the second or third tier law student is getting hired at a BIGLAW firm at all. Once they have been hired, while there is often some elitism within the firm (Harvard Law grads getting together for lunch, Yale law grads getting together to recruit at Yale Law, etc.), that associate from a lower ranked law school will still have a chance at making partner.</p>

<p>It is still true, however, that an attorney hired merely as a contract attorney is never on a track to make partner.</p>

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<p>cartera -</p>

<p>The Kentucky guy is counsel (not surprising, since he clerked for the Sixth Circuit), as are two guys from Pace. These aren’t “staff attorneys” in the sense of “contract attorney.” The third Pace attorney and the Oklahoma City woman are associates. I agree with you that Skadden hired crazy fast and that there were opportunities there that weren’t available at Cravath and Wachtell (and the earlier post is the first time I’ve seen those three lumped together in many years). But for purposes of the OP’s question, it seems to me that “biglaw” means firms that pay six figures to associates (not staff attorneys) just out of law school. There are quite a few of those firms out there. I suspect Greenberg Traurig is one. The current contraction obviously means those firms aren’t hiring like they did five years ago, so some of this is dated. But I’ve been through more than one legal recession (and economy-wide recession) in my day and while this one is particularly troubling, they do end.</p>

<p>Look, OP, if you have your choice whether to go to Harvard or Southwestern, and your criterion is whether you can make a ton of money fresh out of law school, you’d be nuts not to go to Harvard. But the notion that it’s binary is wrong.</p>

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<p>Here’s another example: Paul Hastings has a partner and two associates out of Southwestern. The opportunities are there in many markets, though unfortunately have dried up for a while.</p>

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<p>johnshade - I understand but the number from those schools is tiny in comparison to the top schools. I have said all along that there are exceptions. To claim anything else is not fair to those who have a goal of going to “biglaw” from lower ranked schools. Whether we like it or not, and believe me, it is certainly in my financial interest for it to change, the chances are slim that an average student from a lower ranked school will get an offer from the likes of Skadden or Paul Hastins. Top 10%, law review, good interviewing skills - then we’ll talk.</p>

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<p>I would just like to clarify that my only advice to the OP thus far has been that removing geographic restrictions can sometimes be very beneficial to a young person’s growth.</p>

<p>With that said, I suspect the disagreement on this thread is actually pretty minimal – which is surprising, given that the rhetoric is pretty intense.</p>

<p>1.) I think it’s pretty obvious that language like “basically have to” is clearly an exaggeration. There are many, many lawyers out there who didn’t attend a T14 law school and nonetheless started out at a six-figure job.</p>

<p>The answer to the OP’s question is clearly “Yes.”</p>

<p>2.) Some of these non-T14 associates got their jobs through family connections; the JD’s are just formalities. Some of these associates are in patent law, which is a very different field. Most of these associates got their jobs by performing excellently in law school.</p>

<p>3.) Imagine a world in which 50% of associates are from the T14, and 50% are not. Given that there are only 14 T14 law schools and perhaps 300 others (?), this means that it is twenty times harder to get a “biglaw” job from the other schools. Twenty times is a LOT. I suspect the actual numbers may be even WORSE than this, but I will gladly correct myself if presented with contrary data. It’s probably even WORSE than that, because lower-ranked schools tend on average to be a little larger.</p>

<p>4.) The number isn’t what matters; the proportion is what matters. Since all students are paying exorbitant tuitions, it’s important that a high proportion of those be able to pay them back. If you have to be in the top 10% of your class to stand a shot, that’s not a very good bet. If you have to be related to Mr. Cravath himself, that’s also not a very good bet (unless you are).</p>

<p>5.) As such, it’s probably still not a great idea to attend, say, a third-tier law school. Is it possible to land a six-figure job? Absolutely. Is it a safe bet? Not really, no.</p>

<p>6.) “But I’ll study hard, push myself hard, and end up in the top part of my class – so for me, it’s a safe bet.” The problem is that everybody thinks this way. Most law students are pushing themselves very hard throughout law school – and, therefore, only 10% of kids will end up in the top 10%. If you have to be an exception for the decision to make sense, that’s not economics – that’s gambling.</p>

<p>7.) To the OP: Don’t forget that you’ve basically got an expert witness all to yourself here – hopefully you’ll make the most of it. Cartera’s actually a headhunter for lawyers, so she’s got the “inside scoop” in a way that the rest of us probably can’t emulate.</p>

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<p>Nice summation bluedevilmike.</p>

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<p>Generally, I would say that it’s going to be considerably more difficult to land a position with a six figure starting salary from a T3 or T4 school as compared to a T1 school – not that it’s that easy to get such a position from a T1 school either. You need to remember, however, that the vast majority of practicing lawyers are not graduates of T1 schools and many of them earn six figure incomes.</p>

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<p>cartera -</p>

<p>I don’t think we disagree in anything but emphasis. I fervently disagree with Fitzgerald’s dictum that there are no second acts in American lives but you are certainly right that they can be hard to come by in biglaw.</p>

<p>bluedevilmike -</p>

<p>Good summary, except that the numbers in 3 are subject to further refinement. The 15th-30th ranked law schools and the top-ranked regional schools are going to have much better success that the average school in the non-T-14 schools as a universe. But of course, that makes it worse, not better, for the very low-ranked schools’ students. And I know the 50% is a SWAG but I’m wondering what the data would show for the relative percentages of entering associates from T-14 and non-T-14 students in, say the AmLaw 100 (or 200) in an average year (not this year but not a boom year either). cartera, I didn’t realize you were a legal recruiter but I’m wondering if you’ve seen such data.</p>

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<p>JS: You are, of course, right. A peripheral browsing of a few firms whose names I keep hearing around seems to indicate that the balance might be something like 70/20/10… which would be truly astonishing. (70% T14, 20% 15-30, 10% other.) This is just an impression, of course, but man… those are bad odds.</p>

<p>Again, remember that there are about 300 “other” law schools in the country. If they’re getting only 10% of the spots out there while having twenty times as many students…</p>

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<p>bdm - Wow, that 70% seems high, but I won’t say it’s wrong without more study.</p>

<p>I’m starting to talk myself out of my previously held position. I hate it when contrary evidence pops up!</p>

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<p>In this economy, it will only get worse. I have only a handful of jobs to fill and the “biglaw” firms are telling me not to bother to send resumes from anything other than the “cream of the crop”. That means attorneys already at other “biglaw” firms or a prestigious government entitiy and from a T14 law school - and not from middle of the class. For litigation, it means a federal clerkship.</p>

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<p>Our legal dept. has frozen our hiring plans for the forseeable future.</p>

<p>My own kid is very happy to be going to a T3 school with a regional presence, since my kid’s career aspirations are a medium sized firm or corporate legal department in a Midwestern or MidAtlantic small city. My kid has no expectations of a six figure salary as a new graduate, and is just hoping that the economy is on an upswing in three years. Me too.</p>

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<p>70/20/10 is not a bad estimate for many biglaw firms. At firms like Cravath, it’s more like 90/9/1, but at some other prestigious firms, it’s often around 75/20/5. And there are nowhere near 300 law schools in the country. Though maybe the number approaches 300 if you count unaccredited schools.</p>