<p>I do think that STEM research is in a particular category of super-duper difficult. There are certain demands that are different from other types of difficult work. I am not devaluing any work on the grounds based on its relative difficulty on the dimension that STEM research is particularly difficult.</p>
<p>I value work based on the contribution that the worker makes to the good of society. So I think of social work as some of the most important work around, actually. I think that great literature, great music, and great art make essential contributions to human life. (When it comes to Broadway plays, I see them as very unequal in this regard. Edit: I mean that Broadway plays are not equal to each other–I think that some of them rise to the level of great literature.)</p>
<p>I think that sales positions, for example, contribute to the general economic welfare, and I think that they are important in that way.</p>
<p>Actually, child-rearing is one of the more difficult and more important jobs that there is.</p>
<p>Well, let me try this, Pizzagirl: Was there no way in which any of your math classes were more difficult that you other undergraduate classes? I have no problem with an assessment that a history or language class was the most challenging class that you took, overall. But was there not a dimension along which a math class was the hardest? That is all that I am claiming for STEM research.</p>
<p>QM, Since you have done mostly STEM research, how will you ever know what else would have been “super- duper difficult”. ? Hate to say it, but I do think this is not so much about STEM but more about some people thinking that what they are doing is so much more important than what everybody else is doing. Hope I am wrong in your case. My husband and sons are gifted in math and physics. They are not researchers but all are contributing .</p>
<p>Actually, I think what I am doing is less important than some other work. I selected it because I think it is the specific area that happens to be best suited to my strengths. There would not have been much value in my being a tragically awful social worker, artist, or third-grade teacher.</p>
<p>Of course, my acquaintances are limited in number, but among them are physicians, lawyers (mostly corporate), psychologists, ministers, marketing executives, teachers, one artist, several writers, administrators, small business owners, accountants, a few entrepreneurs, computer scientists, stay-at-home mothers, women who re-entered the workforce in various capacities after their children were grown, . . . Many of them make contributions to society that are objectively more important than mine. This is a matter of simple fact.</p>
<p>I do also think that it is a matter of fact that there is a particular dimension (axis) of difficulty along which STEM research is more difficult. That doesn’t make it more important. It certainly doesn’t make it more valuable. It doesn’t mean that STEM research is more draining overall (it most likely is not).</p>
<p>I have always worked on next frontier for my business, which means no one had done before. When asked by people on which direction to take, I need to take current situation and future risks into consideration. Any decision I make may have s implication on other people’s livelihood. Often there is no room to do over. As mentioned by PG there is no blue print or manual to tell me what to do. There have been few incidences where I have gone into a bathroom and wanted to vomit. Not to be crass, but how much do StEM researchers get paid? In the capitalist society world we live in, how much a profession is paid often reflects how easy/difficult to recruit such talent for the job.</p>
<p>QM…please tell me what your point is. I am mighty confused by your posts. On one hand, you admit that some fields are beyond you…and on another hand you say that STEM (which I believe you do) is the most difficult of all.</p>
<p>Ooo…that’s a low blow to QM. And despite the disclaimer…quite crass in some books. </p>
<p><em>Puts Clash’s “Garageland”, Billy Joel’s “Mony Mony” and Weird Al’s “Alimony” songs on the itunes list for the readers of the thread…especially QM</em> </p>
<p>I am only saying that STEM research is the most difficult along a particular axis (or dimension) of difficulty. With only minor reservations, I believe that. To provide a counter-example, I think that the decipherment of Linear B was more challenging than much STEM research–and took many years to do.</p>
<p>I don’t know what oldfort does, nor do I know what Pizzagirl does (beyond her brief description). I think they both have demanding jobs. </p>
<p>In salary terms, STEM researchers don’t get paid particularly much, although some of my friends who have consulting on the side do noticeably better; the entrepreneurs among us may do much better or may go bankrupt, or anywhere in between. </p>
<p>Don’t tell my employer, but I would do my work for free, oldfort. At a different intellectual level from mine, so would Richard Feynman have done, beyond the salary needed to provide essentials for a comfortable life. In fact, there is a story that the physicists at the University of Chicago offered Feynman a staggering salary (for the time) to move there from Caltech. Feynman never even opened the envelope to see what they were offering–he was happy where he was. That doesn’t mean that it is easy to recruit a talent of Feynman’s level.</p>
<p>"Whenever I DO meet a woman engineer, I ask if her dad was an engineer. Exactly ONE TIME has a young woman said, “No.” That astounds me. "</p>
<p>I do think there is something to that. I tell my daughter there is absolutely no reason for her to claim engineering is hard when she has two parents with a masters in engineering. There are some people in US universities who seem to brainwash girls into thinking they can’t hack it. I seem to have this discussion every quarter and I am getting tired of pointing out that all the As are coming in Physics and Math classes while the liberal arts classes are reflecting a mish mash of grades. I really wonder about who keeps trying to influence her to think engineering is hard and should not be declared as the major.</p>
<p>I hope that your daughter will continue in engineering, texaspg. I think that diversity matters, in terms of professional practice. My niece did not get A’s in math at first–through the calculus courses–but then something clicked for her, and the math classes became easy afterwards. </p>
<p>I guess you don’t know yet where the message that “girls can’t hack it” is coming from, texaspg? Faculty or other students? The absence of role models can be a problem–probably very few of the engineering faculty members are female. One can only hang onto Marie Curie as a role model for so long. One starts to wonder where all of the other role models are. </p>
<p>I think that a big part of the answer, which may help your daughter, is that social conditions have changed quite a bit in the past 40 years or so, and STEM fields are much more open to women. Her circumstances will not be like those of women in earlier generations. This is not to say that equality has been achieved, only that quite a few layers of glass ceilings have already been crashed through.</p>
<p>I am very interested in Feynman, because of his way of solving problems by thinking about them. Feynman was brilliant. I am medium smart. There’s quite a gap.</p>
<p>I would do my work for free. I probably get paid more than most social workers, but I am being serious in saying that I think that social work is more important.</p>
<p>In the capitalist society, Mozarts and and Van Goughs get paid almost nothing. And people who change the world, like Nobel laureates, get paid peanuts compared to hedge fund managers.</p>
<p>And to be completely blunt, just about every physics professor can competently handle just about any finance job after a 12-18 months apprenticeship (most probably don’t need that much time). And it is very, very rarely the case the another way around.</p>
<p>Not going to read the whole thread, but do agree that some themes seem to repeat a lot… and begin to sould like “my Ph.D. is better than your Ph.D.” Really, lets move on to meaningful discussions.</p>
<p>I wonder if a part of it is expectation that girls aren’t supposed to be good at CS or math as opposed to girls * shouldn’t * be. I don’t know if i’m communicating the difference well but it’s an expectation thing: oddity vs rarity.</p>
<p>I went to a competition as part of a team representing my country and when we were chatting about this, we concluded that all of our parents would not accept ‘I’m not good at it’ as a response a la TexasPG. The expectations were that you should do well/make an honest effort at everything and I think that by being pushed to do everything well, you test fields out more than you might under social pressure. (I think most of our parents did not regard Canadian/US standards as particularly tough, so there was no excuse not to try).</p>
<p>Thanks, ecouter11–I love that comic! It’s spot on. But the writer left out Maria Goeppert Mayer, Nobel Laureate (for the nuclear shell model) who could not have a university faculty position for many years, because her husband, Joe Meyer had one, and all of the universities had anti-nepotism rules. She did get a faculty position before the Nobel, though–I think it was when she was in her early 50’s. When she won the Nobel Prize, the newspapers in San Diego carried the story with the headline “Grandmother wins Nobel Prize.”</p>
<p>It would be useful to know of women engineers who could also serve as role models.</p>
<p>General impression I’ve had from taking CS classes and working in environments with heavy concentrations of engineering/CS graduates is that it’s more the working environment dominated by backbiting/oneupsmanship, highly competitive “figure it out yourself” mentality/attitude, disdain/deprioritization of social skills/niceties among the most hardcore engineering/CS folks, and latent sexist assumptions that women couldn’t hack it.</p>
<p>This was reinforced by attending dozens of computer conventions…especially the earlier Linux themed ones. </p>
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<p>Hmm… you’re actually sounding just like a couple of women I asked out for the first…and thankfully the only dates within a year of graduation. I don’t know about others…but there’s something off when the first/only date closely resembles an IRS audit/interrogation. Especially when one of the questions were variations of “How much do you make?”</p>
<p>Interestingly enough, I found a lot of Mainland Chinese folks who come over feel such a question is natural and are shocked when most Americans take serious offense to the question. </p>
<p>Having been raised in the US culture where such a question is considered rude and with the scholarly/intellectual side of my extended family regarding such a question as a definitive sign of a “ill-bred poorly cultured person”, I tend to be taken aback when I see people ask the question. </p>
<p>However, I understand the cultural differences from newly arrived Mainlanders enough so that I put that reaction aside and explain how and to some extent…why* such questions are considered rude in the US context and more importantly…why one should never raise such a question directly unless they’re prepared for the possible negative social consequences. </p>
<ul>
<li>A mixture of prying into matters considered extremely private and none of anyone else’s business and potentially rupturing the highly idealized American concept that everyone supposedly has the same social standing…regardless of one’s SES…even if it is more illusion than reality.</li>
</ul>
:D</p>