Is an MD a 'doctorate' degree?

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<p>I was filling out a government form that included a section about ‘highest level of education achieved’ which listed levels of education starting with elementary school and ending with a doctoral degree. </p>

<p>Anyway, I was surprised to that the MD was not listed at the same rank of ‘doctoral degree’ and was instead listed after ‘masters’ degrees along with the JD (lawyers), OD (optometrists), M.Div (ministers) and some other degrees… some of which were ‘M’ (masters) and others which were ‘D.’ </p>

<p>I always thought that the ‘D’ in MD meant that it was a ‘doctorate’ degree, but this questionnaire seemed to rank the MD as lower than a doctorate degree. So my question is, is the MD a doctorate degree and/or is someone with an MD considered as having a ‘doctorate’?</p>

<p>(I realize this doesn’t really matter, but I’m just curious).</p>

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<p>From [Doctor</a> of Medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Medicine]Doctor”>Doctor of Medicine - Wikipedia) :</p>

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<p>I don’t know if that really answers your question, though.</p>

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<p>The short answer to your question is that the MD is not a doctorate degree nor is it equivalent to a PhD. That said, it’s still certainly a prestigious degree and, at least in the US, it is customary to still address someone with an MD as Dr. (although the history behind that is somewhat interesting). And, of course, some MDs do go on to complete the additional work required to also receive a PhD (eg MD/PhD).</p>

<p>The reason that the MD and those other degrees were listed as lower than a doctorate in the questionnaire in terms of level of education achieved is that these degrees do not meet the traditional definition of what is required to receive a ‘doctorate’ level degree. In particular, where they fall short is the requirement for the generation and defense of the production of ‘new’ knowledge - generally in the form of an extensive research project, thesis and defense of the thesis. </p>

<p>The MD, JD and other similar degrees are classified as ‘first-professional’ degrees. These degrees generally contain ‘masters degree’ level coursework along with extensive ‘apprenticeship’ style training of the trade in question (medicine, law, religion, etc.). Most of these professional schools used to issue masters degrees to their graduates, although some schools eventually started issuing specialized doctoral degrees even though they didn’t actually complete the requirements necessary for a doctorate. This practice is generally limited to the US. </p>

<p>As a result, the ‘first-professional’ degree classification was created in the US to identify those degrees that represented highly advanced training in a particular subject beyond what is normally required for a masters degree but falling short of what is required to be awarded a doctorate. </p>

<p>The US Department of Education states (on a website defining the different classes of degrees one can obtain in the US education system):</p>

<p>“Holders of first-professional degrees are considered to have an entry-level qualification and may undertake graduate study in these professional fields following the award of the first-professional degree. Several of these degrees use the term “doctor” in the title, but these degrees do not contain an independent research component or require a dissertation (thesis) and should not be confused with PhD degrees”</p>

<p>All that said, it shouldn’t take anything away from the MD, JD, or other first-professional degrees. They are all very prestigious and require several years of hard study to obtain, but they are not equivalent to a PhD.</p>

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<p>I’ve never thought of the term “doctorate” by itself applying to MDs. Words like these are such social conventions. </p>

<p>Those lists are not reflecting “rank” as in some sort of judgment of superiority. Simply an ordering that reflects how many degrees one has (an MD usually has two; a PhD usually has three).</p>

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<p><a href=“an%20MD%20usually%20has%20two;%20a%20PhD%20usually%20has%20three”>quote</a>.

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<p>It depends on the subject, but in the sciences it’s very common for someone to only have two ‘degrees’ (bachelors and doctorate) as the masters degree in sciences is far less common than some other subjects. Although, obviously if they have a doctorate then whether or not they have a masters in the same subject is irrelevant. </p>

<p>Most science PhD students can and do enter those programs directly out of undergraduate. Some programs award a masters degree as part of the PhD course (eg after completing some initial coursework), but may others don’t bother with this and only award the doctorate. Also, if someone fails to complete the PhD course they are often given the option of writing up what they’ve done to date for a masters degree instead. </p>

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These ‘highest level of education achieved’ questions are not trying to list the degrees in order of superiority in terms of ‘clout’ or ‘prestige’ but they are listing the degrees in order of their rank in the academic sense. To obtain a doctorate degree (PhD) is considered to have attained a higher level of formal education than obtaining a first-professional degree. Obviously outside of such formalized surveys trying to establish levels of education this has little relevance, but there are distinct differences in the requirements to obtain each category of degree. The key difference between masters level and doctoral level degrees being the requirement for one to generate significant new knowledge in a field and defend that discovery under scrutiny before a board of others with doctorates in the same area of study.</p>

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<p>The answer to the OP’s question is: yes.</p>

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<p>No. I would again cite the official US government definition of what it means to attain these various degrees.</p>

<p>From the United States Department of Education’s of US degree classifications:

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<p>and</p>

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<p>Whatever government survey you were completing was obviously using this official definition and hence why they listed someone with a traditional doctorate degree (eg PhD and other similar doctorate degrees) as having attained a higher level of education that someone with a first professional degree or other professional trade school qualification (eg MD, JD, OD, DDS).</p>

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<p>I’d say that an MD is not a doctorate degree. It is a professional degree.</p>

<p>The way the Common App delineates degrees (in the Family section) is the way I’ve usually seen it done. “Doctorate: ED, PhD, etc.” “Professional: MD, JD, etc.” “Masters”</p>

<p>Doctorate degree definitely ranks above a Masters degree. But comparing the “rank” of a doctorate degree vs. a professional degree doesn’t make any sense. You’re talking apples and oranges.</p>

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<p>

[Quote=Merriam-Webster]

Doctorate
Pronunciation:
ˈd</p>

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<p>^^^^</p>

<p>;-) The same source you cite (Merriam-Webster) defines ‘doctor’ as, among other things:</p>

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<p>and</p>

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<p>Nobody disputes that someone with a medical degree is often called a ‘doctor.’ This was not the issue at hand. </p>

<p>The issue raised by the OP was in regards to academic degrees and whether or not the MD was a doctorate level degree. In this case the source which you cite also notes that a ‘doctor’ in regards to academic degrees is in reference to a PhD and reserves the use of ‘doctor’ for MDs as relating to the general separate definition of one who practices medicine. This description is consistent with the practice in most parts of the world outside the US where those who practice medicine are called ‘doctors’ but generally don’t have a ‘D’ in their degree.</p>

<p>So yes a physician can of course be called a ‘doctor’ but in regards to the OPs question about degrees, the Department of Education’s description of what all these degrees mean basically sums it up.</p>

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<p>I view a doctorate holder as someone who has completed a dissertation.</p>

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<p>I’ll never forget when the Dean of my law school said that with our JDs we could call ourselves “Doctor”, but that we would be laughed out of the profession. That said, I know many MDs who would be horrified to know that anyone anywhere doesn’t consider this a doctorate. No additional degree is conferred after the four or five or more year residencies that many specialists complete after medical school, but maybe there should be.</p>

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<p>I suppose within the profession completing one’s residency carries its own recognized significance…</p>

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<p>I reiterate: yes</p>

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<p>Agreed - after all, a JD is a “Juris Doctor”, but that doesn’t mean anyone is going to call a lawyer “Doctor.”</p>

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<p>To confirm, yes I was asking this in the academic context in terms of level of education achieved (as was the context on the survey I was filling out). I of course realize that someone with an MD is called doctor, I was just asking if it was considered a doctorate degree as in the PhD.</p>

<p>On that it seems like the government definition of the difference between these degrees is quite concise and clear in explaining why an MD or JD would not be considered at the same academic level as a PhD. </p>

<p>audiophile, I note your strong opposition to the statements that the MD is not a doctorate, but I also must look at the authoritative evidence cited which seems to quite clearly and concisely show that such a statement is indeed correct.</p>

<p>I of course realize that in the big picture none of this matters much, but it now at least answers my question of why the MD was not listed under the heading of ‘doctorate degree’ in this level of education survey. Thanks…</p>

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<p>Getting accepted by medical schools (for an MD degree) is so much harder and so much more competitive in general than getting accepted by graduate schools (for a PhD). I knew a few of those rejected by med schools multiple times. However, they still wanted to go to med schools to become MDs. What they did after multiple failed applications to med schools was to apply to graduate schools, got theirs PhDs, during mean time, improved their other credentials (MCAT scores and GPA/ many graduate programs gave at least B and above grades to every graduate students, so higher GPA can be earned from graduate schools), then applied to med schools again after successfully earned their PhDs and eventually succeeded in gaining med school acceptances.</p>

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<p>I just answered the question asked and stand by it. A doctorate is simply an educational degree to give the title doctor. I understand there is a difference between a research and professional doctorate, feel free to argue their rank amongst yourselves. </p>

<p>I can’t help but notice that the some of the same posters were involved your other thread and obviously have strong opinions: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/526257-who-s-dr.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/526257-who-s-dr.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I don’t think anyone is really arguing about ‘ranks’ or trying to suggest anyone is better than anyone else… the OP simply asked why on a particular official document the MD was not listed as a ‘doctorate’ degree at the top of a list of levels of educational achievement and the answer was provided that it’s not a doctoral degree, it’s a professional degree and hence why it was listed as such. </p>

<p>I really don’t know how much simpler one can put it. I’ve already pointed out that the official body in the US which gets to decide such matters (the US Department of Education) not only says that the professional degrees are not the equivalent of the PhD (which is was the OP asked to be clarified), but even makes the specific point of noting that even though some of these professional degrees have the word ‘doctor’ in them one should not confuse those holding these degrees as having earned a PhD level qualification. </p>

<p>The OP asked if these degrees are classified as equivalent levels of academic qualification and the official answer is that no they are not. People can argue till they’re blue in the face that it shouldn’t be this way, that the official definitions are wrong, that one type of school is more or less difficult to get accepted to, that one takes longer, that they both have ‘Ds’ in the title so should be considered to be the same… blah blah blah ;-)</p>

<p>At the end of the day the official body which has the final say on such matters in this country says they’re not the same and that is why the MD was not listed in the doctorate cluster of degrees on the OP’s cited survey asking what the highest level of educational qualification was. </p>

<p>I don’t particularly care and have equal levels of respect for both classes of degree. I just simply pointed the OP to the official definitions which answered their question…</p>

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<p>I know a lawyer who used to call himself, “Dr.”</p>

<p>I was a little taken aback by that and wondered if that common practice in some regions.</p>