<p>Cool…</p>
<p>*compared to people in Kenya or Malawi, we are all rich. *</p>
<p>There is poverty of bank account/material goods and then there is the poverty of the soul- which is more important?</p>
<p>If you have food, friends and shelter you are pretty well off- the US is not the uniquely superior nation that we would like to think it is.</p>
<p><a href=“I%20must%20be%20a%20high%20prole%20;”>url=Class Dismissed - The Atlantic; or an X) since a high prole probably wouldn’t have read this.)</p>
<p>^definitely poverty of the soul, I’ve been outside of the US to third world countries. I see kids in Mexico who have nothing but always have a smile on their face. Material wealth doesn’t solve everything.</p>
<p>“Successful people who make a real contribution in life pay no attention to it.”</p>
<p>I don’t know if that’s true. When I work with underprivileged kids, I tell them to pay a lot of attention to it. If they want to make it through college and into the work force, they need to dress, speak, and behave according to certain rules that their parents and peers often don’t follow.</p>
<p>It’s a middle-class privilege that we don’t have to pay any attention to it. We exhibit those important class-signaling behaviors without thinking about it, and we don’t run into any trouble in the workplace. People trying to climb from one class to another better pay attention.</p>
<p>The movie “Working Girl” got this right 25 years ago. The secretary who wants to become a boss needs to get rid of the secretary hair, secretary accent, and secretary wardrobe. She will never be taken seriously as a boss if she doesn’t get the class markers right.</p>
<p>Are there class differences? Yes. You do not have to be wealthy to be a classy person. I have known a number of people who are very wealthy who treated everyone equally. I know others (with all economic levels) who treat people like dirt. But, within a certain group of people, Dominick Dunne wrote about them, there is a barrier that is very hard to penetrate. There are mannerisms, food preferences (no garlic for example), clothing choices (in the 50s it was Mainbocher for instance) that signify a certain background. Camps, schools, clubs, and restaurants of choice all say something about what class you’re from. </p>
<p>Jason, you are correct in not saying where you go to school or revealing too much personal information. Based on one post (another topic entirely) I was able to identify a kid whom I had never met from my kids’ school. I even suspect I know what school you go to in New York. Your question is a valid one, especially if you go to the school I have in mind (and we live far away from New York).</p>
<p>
You’re confusing class with income. Many families in areas like NYC where both spouses are uneducated municipal employees (cops, firemen, sanitation workers, etc.) will make in that income range. But that has nothing to do with “class.” Class usually implies at least a certain level of education.</p>
<p>Lets substitute social status for class.</p>
<p>Lets look at social status through the USA, not just in the low purchasing power areas like NYC. 200,000k is a hefty sum (its around 2-3’rd percentile of tax payers).</p>
<p>Im also unsure how 2 uneducated workers can earn $200,000. The median household income for high powered Manhattan was only $120,000 a year. If municipal workers households (most of whom are usually below the the median demarcation line) earn $200,000, the median household salary would be at least $300000-$400000.
The median salaries are much much much much less for the other parts of NYC. NYC median is around $77,000, without Manhattan it would be significantly lower.</p>
<p>Source: NYC 2007 income and poverty data.</p>
<p>Jason, my hubby is a sanitation worker with many years seniority. He made $125k last year. I’m a trademark administrator right now at a law firm (many years experience). I make over $100k. Neither of us has ever gone to college and my husband is functionally illiterate. This is what senior municipal employees make in NYC. High income? Yes. Upper class. Absolutely not. I work with truly upper class people – I spent decades hiring them for law firms. The difference is remarkable. The uniformed municipal employees make a lot of money. Earn tons of overtime and perks.</p>
<p>What you are missing is the seniority element. Most municipal employees retire at 20 years and have step increases at a certain level, so there’s a huge line of distinction between senior and junior. Also, non-uniformed employees make much less money than the uniformed services. </p>
<p>Here’s another example: Mr. Smith teaches high school history and is at top pay. He also teaches summer school and does some after school things. Earns $125k. Wife teaches English at top pay and is the cheerleading coach. Makes similar money. They are educated, productive, important. But upper class? Then you have the young man coming out of a nice college, post-prep school, who gets a banking trainee position. With bonus, he makes $125k, marries a young woman out of law school, also excellent education, wealthy parents, hired as a first year associate at a law firm. They may make at 25 what a senior police sergeant with 18 years and tons of overtime married to a senior teacher make at 50. Income is not the same as class.</p>
<p>The top 1% isn’t around $250K, it’s an AGI of $410K.
Top 5% is from $160K on up.</p>
<p>[Stack</a> Up Your Income Against Obama’s - Kiplinger](<a href=“http://www.kiplinger.com/features/archives/how-your-income-stacks-up.html]Stack”>taxes: Advice, News, Features & Tips | Kiplinger)</p>
<p>cbreeze: That chart was for 2007. I believe the numbers for top 1%, 5% and 10%and likely every levels probably dropped for 2009 and may further drop for 2010.</p>
<p>The OP is also using 2007 figures to make his arguments.
I doubt the top 1% figure will change much, the bottom 50% might be lower, that is why many say that the income inequality is at an all time high. The richest Americans will continue to earn a lot more.</p>
<p>ZM: your post explains so much about how much financial trouble the major cities are in. I realize that wasn’t your intent, but… wow! how can cities afford to pay their municipal employees those kinds of wages without taxing the heck out of all the businesses in their cities?</p>
<p>fine, we will compromise and call 350k the demarcation line. The 250k is a reasonable demarcation line (its around 1.5 percentile).</p>
<p>Again, i have said that the figure will vary depending on your source. I dont think it matters much though because the point is still the same.</p>
<p>What i still dont understand is why would u hire a municipal worker for 125k a year. There would be ones willing to do it for 40k a year lined up… I have provided the median salaries for the manhattan and it just doesnt make sense that a janitor for example, would earn more than 50-55% of all people in manhattan, including the wall street bankers, doctors, and lawyers who reside in Manhattan.</p>
<p>I haven’t read very far, but can’t the OP’s example reflect cultural norms? That’s the way it WAS when i lived in NYC. People don’t go around smiling and talking to each other! That’s for “crazy” people! When I moved to L.A., I couldn’t understand why everyone was always smiling and talking to me ( and rollerskating in bikinis!). </p>
<p>But I do feel in California suburbs, folks identify more by “class” than they did in NY. In New york, well off black people tended to live with each other in the same neighborhoods…Here, I almost NEVER see another black face, and when I do, we both look at each other like “what are YOU doping here?..I know, right?..”</p>
<p>wow! how can cities afford to pay their municipal employees those kinds of wages without taxing the heck out of all the businesses in their cities?</p>
<p>My H doesn’t have a public position, but he has at least two & often three weekends of forced overtime a month- and union contract demands he be paid overtime, which makes his salary much higher than it would have been if it was a straight 40 hrs a week.</p>
<p>Sometimes, some of these public sector positions are quoted at paying a higher annual income, than they would indicate if you only looked at hourly wage.</p>
<p>The businesses apparently have concluded it is cheaper to work these guys to death, than have to hire more people, train them, pay them benefits etc.</p>
<p>Re post #54: </p>
<p>I think the “classist” part of the OP was the statement that the dad “told me to hold my head high and don’t look at the other people” - that is, what’s with the bit about holding his head high? And “don’t look” is something different than “don’t stop to chat”. NYC is one of the greatest people-watching centers of the planet – I would get “don’t stare” since staring is rude… but don’t “look”? That’s the opposite advice from what I would give my street-smart daughter, not that she needs my advice – but I’d counsel my kid to be aware of her surroundings, including taking note of anything odd or suspicious nearby.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap: Where in California do you live? When we lived in the valley (a suburb within suburbs) there weren’t many black people. In certain areas lots of hispanics. When we moved over the hill to a much more expensive neighborhood: lots of black, Asian, hispanic, white people. And generally speaking no one looks at anyone differently. </p>
<p>Who knew?</p>
<p>Most government, including municipal pay scales increase according to seniority. So folks stay at jobs that they would ditch otherwise. You can work forever as a sales clerk or certain other jobs and still be making close to minimum wage. In fact, the pay has changed very little over the last 10 years for those working those positions.</p>
<p>^^“Where the valley meets the bay”, </p>
<p>and not 30 miles from one of the most diverse cities in the country (THAT city’s, demographic in 2000 was 36.0% White, 23.7% African American, 0.7% Native American, 24.2% Asian, 1.1% Pacific Islander, 7.9% from other races, and 6.6% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 15.9% of the population. Residents with Filipino ancestry made up 20.74%) </p>
<p>To be fair, seeing another black person is not as rare as it was 12 years ago. 12 years ago we never described people as “black”, etc, to our children, but during one of our town parades, a marching band from a more “diverse” town passed by, and 5 year old son pointed and said “Look!” People like me!. A few days ago, three unrelated black people passed a nearby corner at the same time and it blew my mind!</p>
<p>Come workers sing a rebel song,
A song of love and hate,
Of love unto the lowly
And of hatred to the great.
The great who trod our fathers down,
Who steal our children’s bread,
Whose hands of greed are stretched to rob
The living and the dead.
-James Connolly</p>
<p>But, in actuality, I’m below the poverty line, and don’t treat anyone differently because of their social class, with the exception of the snobby rich people, but I suppose that treating them in a negative manner would then be based on behavior, not exactly class. Also, the way I act and dress and speak do not make people think I’m poor (and I live in an affluent suburb - thanks to an estate sale that sold a house for 1/3 value, when my family was a little better off), so I often hear comments about the poor that I wouldn’t otherwise hear if the people saying them knew my family’s economic situation. In fact, as an adult, I plan to choose voluntary poverty. But voluntary poverty doesn’t involve the internal strife and external struggle that a family faces with involuntary poverty. Experiencing poverty (and despite foreclosure attempts, food stamps, occasional nomadic living, temporary family homelessness, being apart from a parent because he could only find a job across the country, and endless worrying and strife about the evil of money, my family is far from the worst off in the country or world) is an unparalleled experience, and has certainly inspired by beliefs about social reform (see James Connolly) and the dedication of my life to aiding those less fortunate than myself.</p>
<p>I think that all people of all classes ought to have compassion for others, particularly those in worse off situation. No person is superior to any other person, and people need to get that through their heads.</p>