<p>Let me give everyone a real life example on how income or personal assets has nothing to do with class.</p>
<p>My grandmother and father on 12/31/1958 were woth over $65,000,000 dollars on Jan 1st 1959 after Fidel Castro’s revolution overthrew Cuba’s government. They lost it all.</p>
<p>Would this make my dad a person that graduated from the best high school in Cuba, attended Culver Military Academy in Indiana during the summers, graduated from an Ivy leaque University, in other words he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth a low class person? Of course not. He immigrated to the best country on earth and made a great living raised three children and taught us that no matter what our net worth is, we would allways be classy people. Not because it was in our DNA, but because it was how we were raised.</p>
<p>^ That’s interesting. In my family, for a very few of us, the story is reversed (no millions, but I have some silver spoons in storage), but no matter how far you “make it”, the message is “never forget where you came from” .</p>
<p>In New York, that meant “making it” from Brooklyn, to Queens, to Long Island.</p>
<p>My dad has told me that even though his salary has increased over the years since he now works at Harvard, his lifestyle has not. We own a simple car that works, don’t take many vacations, live in the same house we’ve always been in, eat out maybe once every few months etc…</p>
<p>I never claimed that pure earning potential itself demarcates class. I simply said that that is how its measured. What we are really measuring is productivity and upper class people are more productive.</p>
<p>This is the EASIEST way to determine class. Remove all of your assets (cash, home equity, private equity).</p>
<p>If you were then stranded in the middle of a large metropolis, lets see how you would fare after a year.</p>
<p>Case 1: upper class: Mr. Bill Gates lost his 40 BIllion dollar fortune. BUt after 1 year, Mr. Gates is heading a major software corporation and is earning multiple millions a year.</p>
<p>Case 2: middle class: Mr. Jones is a business manager. After losing his home and all of cash and magically appearing in NYC, he becomes confused but sends his impresive resume and is picked up by a fortunes 500 company. He now enjoys a high 5 digit salary.</p>
<p>Case 3: proletariat: Mr. Williams was a burger flipper at McDonalds. After losing his precious savings of $10, he wanders around the NYC. After 1 year, we can see Mr. Williams on various street corners selling drugs to supplement his janitorial income.</p>
<p>Gator, your parents were upper class because of their education and human capital. Upper class people are upper class because of their productivity, which can be 99% reflected by their income. And in the United States of America, thou art PAID according to thou productivity.</p>
<p>Furthermore, your post is kind of a non-sequitor because we have been talking about income, not wealth. It is harder to demarcate who is upper class or not with wealth measurements.</p>
<p>“Gator, your parents were upper class because of their education and human capital. Upper class people are upper class because of their productivity, which can be 99% reflected by their income. And in the United States of America, thou art PAID according to thou productivity.”</p>
<p>No Jason…sometimes what you say is correct…sometimes it isn’t.</p>
<p>Why would you pay a wall street baron $50 million a year?</p>
<p>Because he adds $70 million a year in profits…</p>
<p>Why did the chicken cross the road? </p>
<p>Because he could make more money across the road.</p>
<p>It doesnt make sense to hire an aristocrat for $500k a year unless he is making more money for you in return. In the USA, 70% of corporate profits are paid in income. That means the more productive you are, the more you are paid (generally. Difference is more noticeable in the business sector where bonuses really reward productivity). The more you make, the more you are paid.</p>
<p>On the one hand, I think this is much ado about nothing, but then I realize I can afford to think this way because of my background, or social class. I am middle class in income but come from an elite academic background (on the part of parents, who btw were also middle class), which sets me apart from others more than anything else. Perhaps it’s more an elitism than a classism. I work in a creative field that is definitely based on a meritocracy (the word “genius” and “masterpiece” being traditionally used to describe the historical high end of my world). My peers are definitely elitist, especially of what they perceive to be “mainstream culture”. I guess you could say they are among the intellectual elites. However they are hardly snobs when it comes to income levels or neighborhoods in NYC. One of the fascinating things about this city, as opposed to a suburb, is that you never know who someone is. The local garbage or electrician could just as easily have a PhD. Even some of the homeless guys in my neighborhood are Ivy educated, literally. One of my favorite personal games is to see what people are reading on the subway because it often turns my assumptions about class/race/educational background upside down. Your father would probably miss some wonderful people keeping his head held so high.</p>
<p>On another measure, I do find myself judging people in service jobs who I encounter based on their “classiness”, which has nothing to do with their income but how graciously they comport themselves and how sincerely they do their jobs, no matter what the job. And I always notice.</p>
<p>The older I get and more I see the more convinced I am that “class” is really just about good manners, and certainly NOT “holding your head high and not looking at others.”</p>
<p>Good manners can be found at any income or education level. They are about consideration, interest in others, grace. Some are born with it. Some are taught it. Some never get it and no matter how wealthy they may become they remain kluges.</p>
<p>My spouse and I both work for Fortune 100s. We have seen many advance in this setting despite “secretary hair” or not knowing the right fork. Those sort of class signals are mattering less and less in this society. What does seem to propel you upward is actual contribution to the organization and ability to work effectively with others - and especially the talent to lead. My DH’s last boss - a fellow who most certainly was earning several million a year - had deplorable table manners, was short, fat, bald and without the slightest social graces. He was also quite intelligent, hugely energetic, passionate about his field and extremely interested in everyone - his staff right down to the summer intern all the way up to the CEO. </p>
<p>America is not England or Old Europe. There are those who are fixated on their Wasp upbringing and claim to be mortified by their privilege but I notice that they seem rather obsessed with all the trappings. I think those people are becoming more and more marginal in our society.</p>
<p>““class” is really just about good manners”</p>
<p>That’s true, but many aspects of ‘good manners’ are culture-dependent. Yes, looking out for the other person’s feelings is polite in every culture. But what about chewing tobacco (or gum) during a corporate job interview, while wearing a tube top and booty shorts? For middle-class people, that’s very bad manners…and very low-class. But the job applicant isn’t trying to be rude, she is following a different set of cultural rules.</p>
<p>As if there are never any drug-dealers from privileged / affluent backgrounds. Come off it. </p>
<p>More likely, Mr. Williams winds up working 2 jobs, maybe as a janitor or foodservice employee who gets the “privilege” of serving and cleaning up after pompous students such as yourself, who don’t care if they leave common rooms or cafeteria areas dirty because they figure the little people will clean up after them. </p>
<p>You’ve got a LOT to learn in life, JasoninNY, about what makes people valuable. A honest day’s work is never something to be ashamed of, whether it’s sweeping floors, flipping burgers, doing the books for a small firm, performing eye surgery, or being the inventor who came up with the technology for the eye surgery. You really would benefit from a summer of working on the docks or sweeping floors. It might provide you with an education that even Harvard can’t provide you.</p>
<p>As a friend of mine puts it, “I’ve been broke, but I’ve never been poor.” Broke is no-money-right-now and some human capital, as it’s described above; poor is no-money-right-now and not a lot of prospects for getting any.</p>
<p>I think that also relates to class. Those in poverty have poverty of options as well as little cash. I know lots of people who choose to live very simply on very little money, but they choose it, it’s not forced on them. </p>
<p>I think class mostly relates to how you think of yourself. I have friends who consider being called “middle” class an insult. My mother considered my husband lower class because he’s an engineer and worked with his hands–I’m sure she’d be horrified that we now have a retail business! </p>
<p>I consider anyone who went to a private college to have an upper-class education (even those who went there on scholarships or loans). If you read literature, you’re upper class; if you do the New York Times crossword puzzle for pleasure, you’re upper class. If you don’t work and live off your wealth–whether you live simply or luxuriously–you’re upper class.</p>
<p>Class to me is about your choices in how you live, not about how much money you have.</p>
<p>Hannah - I agree with your point to an extent but chewing gum and wearing a tube top for an interview for an office job would indicate lack of intelligence, not lack of “class.”</p>
<p>How so? You don’t think it’s possible for a smart young person to be in a state of extreme ignorance if she’s never been outside of her poor community? I have seen it many times.</p>
<p>For a middle-class person, sure, only a fool would do that. You understand the rules so intuitively that you think they are common sense. But they aren’t. They have to be learned. It’s possible to grow up in America and know as little about middle-class business culture as you do about Laotian or Yoruba culture.</p>
<p>But every community has its “rules”. My background is very different than that of my husband’s. In my world people routinely “share” a dinner if its good. In his…nary a stray fork on another’s dinner plate. My background people say what they mean, in his…its all feint and pretend. (I have learned how to refuse a dinner invitation however. In my background I would say, “I’ll get back to you” or, “no, we’re busy.” In his, “Oh, that sounds lovely!” and you’re good for a year of freedom.</p>
<p>Clothing is so indicative of background: In mine: St. John knits…in theirs…Lily Pulitzer. In some socks or no socks. </p>
<p>But ultimately class is how you treat people. Are you polite to the waiter and your boss? Do you treat the saleslady at Neiman’s the same as the one at H&M? If yes, you have class. If you pick and choose, you don’t have class.</p>
<p>When I was in college, I worked in food service at a country club. I noticed that the long-standing local aristocrats who controlled all the club boards and had a couple of generations of wealth behind them invariably treated all the employees with courtesy. It was the pushy nouveaus who displayed impatience and a sense of entitlement. You can tell a lot about people by observing how they treat those who serve them.</p>
<p>I actually dont think anyone of the upper class has an obligation to treat others with courtesy. Aristocrats are people too. They can do dam well how they please.</p>
<p>No actually they are not.
They may have money- but they are boorish and ill mannered if they do not consider the rights and well being of others.</p>
<p>Someone with * real* class, does not treat a CEO or head of state any differently than they treat the person that handles their dry cleaning or their great aunt.</p>
<p>I’ve been fortunate to work with some really famous people over the years. One I remember most was the last Louis Auchincloss (lawyer, author, cousin to Jacqueline Onassis). He was vile and revolting to absolutely everyone. Not sure if that means he had or did not have class.</p>