<p>^Cayuga, I saw her points. But, my point was that it would be hard for many genuine sports fans, like me and many others around the country, to be actually be enjoying watching these sports games, when these sports teams suck. Thus, hawkette is way overestimating the impact that these school teams have on the spectators, to assume that mere sports games would impress the spectators despite these teams’ lack of success.</p>
<p>"But I consider Duke to be an academic peer (or more) to all of the non-HYP Ivies and then I think you would get the social life and athletic benefits as well. I have a similar view of Vanderbilt and think its undergraduate package, when measured as a combination of academics/social/athletic, is also superior to the non-HYP Ivies. "</p>
<p>“Re your argument about attending all games as a college student, you are willing to accept that this goes on at Duke and is probably a pretty exciting event to attend and enjoy. Right? Are you aware that Vanderbilt drew 14,000+ to all of its men’s basketball conference games last winter or that ND football, despite a lousy year, drew 80,000 for each of its games. What you are not seeing is that these are major events and not just any ole Ivy League game with a handful of people in the stands. It’s a different scene.”</p>
<p>But we’re not IMPRESSED by how many students show up at games. You constantly trot out attendance records and seating charts as though they prove anything. They don’t. Knowing that more people are showing up at something doesn’t make it more fun for those of us who don’t care about it in the first place. You have a very strong bias that big crowds add to the fun of something. We GET that these are major events and draw bigger crowds than an Ivy League game with a handful of people in the stands. We don’t CARE.</p>
<p>Thanks for the song lyrics, Cayuga.</p>
<p>You are truly the eternal ray of sunshine on a stormy, windswept thread.</p>
<p>“But, my point was that it would be hard for many genuine sports fans, like me and many others around the country, to be actually be enjoying watching these sports games, when these sports teams suck. Thus, hawkette is way overestimating the impact that these school teams have on the spectators, to assume that mere sports games would impress the spectators despite these teams’ lack of success.”</p>
<p>Hey, from an NU perspective, I thoroughly agree with you! Hell, what’s the difference when NU loses to a Big 10 school versus if we were to lose to an Ivy school? Nada.</p>
<p>Yes Pizzagirl, but Hawkette is just very concerned that a student will go to Cornell and be missing out on all the fun…Her message I’m sure has touched many potential Cornell students and adequately flagged them to the errors of their ways…:rolleyes:</p>
<p>I spent four years in Ithaca, I know how to have sunshine on a cloudy day.</p>
<p>"But I consider Duke to be an academic peer (or more) to all of the non-HYP Ivies and then I think you would get the social life and athletic benefits as well. I have a similar view of Vanderbilt and think its undergraduate package, when measured as a combination of academics/social/athletic, is also superior to the non-HYP Ivies. "</p>
<p>EVERYONE thinks Duke is an academic peer to the non-HYP Ivies. It’s only some naive high school seniors who think that there are real academic differences at this level, and it’s only people with no class who can’t say these are all fine, fine schools – decisions at this level boil down to personal preference and fit.</p>
<p>But Hawkette, here’s where you’re driving us nuts. You’re not qualifying your choices for those students who care about athletics. You’re saying that in general, Duke/Vandy et al are superior choices to non-HYP Ivies because of the athletic life. And I just don’t see how you can say that they are overall superior choices. They are all pretty much equal choices, and then each person has to decide for him/herself their personal preferences.</p>
<p>“One modification is that I consider HYP (and SM) as being super-brands and thus their reps would likely trump nearly all other considerations.”</p>
<p>Whoa, whoa, whoa. If it’s sad that someone who might have enjoyed Duke’s sporting life goes to Cornell and thus can’t enjoy the frenzied rah-rah nationally-ranked Dooooooke stadium culture, why isn’t it equally Sad that someone who might have enjoyed Duke’s sporting life goes to Harvard?</p>
<p>Yeah… in case nobody has noticed: The undergraduate experience of most Harvard students absolutely sucks.</p>
<p>“My hope is to inform and shine a light on differences that a student might want to investigate in their evaluation of a college. It could be class sizes, it could be graduation rates (4-yr and 6-yr), it could be weather, it could be Greek life. It could be any number of topics, including athletic life.”</p>
<p>So then why do you repeatedly come back, on every thread, to saying that Stanford/Duke/Vandy/et al providing The Best Undergrad Experiences?</p>
<p>"hawkette, I caught this previous response written before from you. You seem to be overestimating this whole “sports spectatorship” deal, even when these schools aren’t even that strong athletically. "</p>
<p>Exactly. Which is why I contend that there isn’t much difference between NU’s sports culture and that of most of the Ivies, except that when NU loses, it loses to much bigger schools that are, for the most part, not its academic equals. Either way, students seem to have fun with it, but don’t actually treat it like it’s a Huge Big Deal. If they had wanted big football experiences, they’d have gone elsewhere.</p>
<p>But, Pizzagirl - </p>
<p>I feel you’re sadly missing Hawkette’s point. NU’s stadium holds at least 60,000 people. Do you have any idea how many people attended UCLA’s basketball playoffs last year? How aren’t you understanding why Cornell is inferior?!?!?!?</p>
<p>Figured I’d answer for her. :)</p>
<p>I love how people are thinking that there are 231 posts that are passionately debating the finer parts of the Cornell experience, when in reality we are talking about the value of big time sports on college campuses.</p>
<p>Notre Dame = top 20 school w/ big time sports.</p>
<p>Hawkette, when you have said upthread: “I also believe that there are plenty of Ivy students who have no idea what going to a Pac 10, ACC, Big Ten or SEC football game is like. If they came from the New England prep school environment (and many do) and all they’ve seen first-hand is something like Deerfield vs Choate. If they extrapolate this to Brown vs Dartmouth (which isn’t far off), then I’m pretty sure that their understanding of Stanford-Cal, Duke-U North Carolina, Northwestern-U Michigan, Vanderbilt-U Tennessee or Notre Dame-Southern Cal is not very good.”</p>
<p>Here’s my question, Hawkette. Why are you so concerned that prospective students “fully understand” the nature of the football games at a college? Why is that a more important aspect for them to understand compared to the theater scene, the size of the campus, the surrounding community, opportunities for study abroad or internships, or other aspects of the campus culture? Because in every thread you participate on, it always comes down to some fear that someone will pick an Ivy over Stanford/Duke/et al and thus have missed out on the fun of the Big Game. Is this really such a big deal, if someone goes to an otherwise excellent school but doesn’t ever get to root for a team at the Big Game? Because honestly, Big-Game rooting is how many mediocre students with low aspirations make their college decisions. </p>
<p>Can I ask where you went to school or where you would have wanted to go (recognizing that there may have been other factors such as finances)?</p>
<p>I’ll just close with this observation - </p>
<p>On big sports campuses (much like big sports cities) I have found everybody kind of gets caught up in a single tide of energy focused on one event (football, basketball, cricket…). Like the Dead Poets Society movie demonstrated, everybody kind of inadvertently starts walking in the same rhythm. Everybody talks about the same thing. Everybody follows the same events. Everybody even starts dressing the same. I guess that’s great if you like that kind of instantaneous bonding.</p>
<p>One of the reasons I think Cornell is actually superior for not being a big sports obsessed school (yet still having great sports to watch if one chooses) is that it allows people to truly pursue whatever interests them. Nothing really dominates Cornell’s energy. If you want to scream your head off at a hockey game and travel all over the country with a top tier team, it’s there for you (even I get rather proud seeing the Cornell jerseys walking around Cambridge or wandering into an autumn Harvard-Cornell game that’s like a throwback to another era). If you want to spend your weekends in the backcountry or at wineries, it’s there. If you want to become a WASPish frat boy who drinks all weekend, it’s there. If you want to be a complete bookworm immersed in study and research, it’s there and highly respected. </p>
<p>I guess CayugaRed already sort of made this point, but the assumption that a school is intrinsically superior because it has big time sports is merely a matter of baseless opinion depending on one’s desires. For me, Cornell is superior because it does not have big time sports. </p>
<p>Myself and my two brothers all went to Cornell. My experience compared to theirs was so different it would be hard to imagine we went to the same school. That, to me, is the beauty of Cornell.</p>
<p>I agree with your post and I think it describes my NU experience as well. I always loved that the sports scene at NU was one that you could take or leave as you saw fit. If you wanted to go to the football games, great - they were there for you. If you didn’t, well, then, enjoy the lakefront or the library or downtown Chicago or whatever else you wanted. You weren’t out of any social loop or an outcast if you didn’t go to the games. That, to me, is “superior” to everyone-on-campus-gets-caught-up-in-cheering-for-the-exact-same-thing.</p>
<p>pizzagirl,
Re your question about why I post often on athletic life, it is because there are real differences in what happens on many campuses, Ivy and non-Ivy, and these differences sometimes importantly impact the social life of an undergraduate student. Probably not for you and probably not for applejack, but it is for some folks. </p>
<p>As for why not theater, why not study abroad, etc., please don’t let me stop you from bringing this up. If you feel it is important and distinctive and unique to a school, then IMO you should bring it up. </p>
<p>applejack,
Your last post was constructive. Thanks. The descriptions were nice and painted a picture of what appealed to you as an undergraduate student at Cornell. Some of the activities clearly cannot be duplicated in many places, eg, the winery tours, backcountry backpacking, etc. and these are the kinds of things that I think could appeal to some prospective Cornell students. This idea, that there are distinctive activities at various colleges that are not replicated elsewhere, is what I have been trying to get at for most of this thread. Pointing out these activities does not diminish the academic quality of the school, but they could potentially enhance the full undergraduate experience that a student will have.</p>
<p>to know Ithaca- is to love Ithaca</p>
<p>check out [Complete</a> guide to Ithaca, NY hotels, attractions, dining, shopping and recreation with maps and driving directions. The official web site of Ithaca, New York and Tompkins County Convention and Visitors Bureau in the Finger Lakes.](<a href=“http://www.visitithaca.com%5DComplete”>http://www.visitithaca.com)</p>
<p>“This idea, that there are distinctive activities at various colleges that are not replicated elsewhere, is what I have been trying to get at for most of this thread.”</p>
<p>Cornell sounds lovely based on these descriptions (I’ve never been). I am equally sure there are similar unique and appealing traits for all of the top 20 colleges that we’ve been talking about, whether it’s being in a place of natural beauty, having a unique recreation opportunity nearby, or other unique aspects of the campus. Given that, is it really appropriate to say that Stanford/Duke/Vandy are “better undergrad experiences” than the non-HYP Ivies just based on their sports presence? Really, at this level, I think all you can say is that these are just all different flavors of some very super-premium ice cream.</p>