<p>Which, again, is simply personal preference and has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, which is the quality of Cornell for what it does offer.</p>
<p>The point you, Bourne, and Hawkette are making is obvious and hardly need be mentioned. Yes, if someone likes watching sports go to a school where other people like to watch sports.</p>
<p>We get it, irrelevant as it may be.</p>
<p>But Hawkette has a sports agenda. Why else is she so concerned that everyone understand the differences in athletic life between the different schools? Kids for whom it’s important will seek it out. Kids for whom it’s not important won’t seek it out. Just like Greek systems, or active theater departments, or warm weather, or anything else. </p>
<p>Hawkette seems concerned that someone will choose an Ivy and then have buyer’s remorse that they really would have enjoyed a Stanford/Duke/Vandy sports environment, if only they’d been exposed to the fun and known what it was all about. And that may be. But how is that different from any other buyer’s remorse on any other topic? Heck, maybe I would have enjoyed swimming in Cornell’s gorges! I didn’t apply to Princeton because it was “too rural” for me at the time. In hindsight, maybe that was dumb - I think I would have loved it. I turned down Penn for NU and there are some times I think maybe I should have gone to Penn. I never looked at schools on the West Coast even though money was no object. Oh well! You can’t second guess yourself all day long. And there’s no reason to believe sports-scene regret is any different from any other form of regret.</p>
<p>applejack,
Sadly, I don’t think you get it. Just because you don’t value non-academic considerations (or at least the ones that have been discussed here), you seem intent on jabbing at and dismissing those that do. </p>
<p>Isn’t it possible that evaluating the quality of Cornell is not limited to just what happens in the classroom?</p>
<p>^ My earlier post still seems relevant:
Hawkette does indeed have many quarters!
:)</p>
<p>The QUALITY of Cornell (or any other school)? No, I don’t think the sports offerings play into a quality assessment in any way, shape or form.</p>
<p>I can buy that intramural or team sports PARTICIPATION or other physical opportunities (opportunities for hiking, sailing, skiing) play into the assessment insofar as it relates to developing the physical body along with the mind. </p>
<p>But sports SPECTATORSHIP? No. Sorry. It may be FUN, but has nothing to do with quality.</p>
<p>So much for my attempt at closure.</p>
<p>Has anything new been added to this thread in the last day, aside for a Cornellian and a Princetonian singing silly songs at each other?</p>
<p>No.</p>
<p>There’s a psychological imbalance at work here. UCBChemGrad is right. You obsess over this topic in every thread and commandeer the topics around this issue. For whatever reason this issue of sports is so important to you, something’s just not getting through on the difference between quality and preference.</p>
<p>Wellesley is an incredible school for what it offers students. Nobody would ever say, “Wellesley isn’t that good because it doesn’t have a Division I sports program”. Neither would they say that about MIT or CalTech. Why do you insist on saying it about Cornell? </p>
<p>Don’t answer that. This is getting nauseating.</p>
<p>“Just because you don’t value non-academic considerations (or at least the ones that have been discussed here), you seem intent on jabbing at and dismissing those that do.”</p>
<p>I think you don’t get that for some of us, all that active sports spectatorship is actually a negative, not just merely a neutral-take-it-or-leave-it the way a school’s theater scene, etc. might be. Some of us don’t want to be around huge crowds of people who take something so insignificant and elevate it beyond anything other than an amusing, occasional diversion. Which is really why I had to laugh at Evil Asian Dictator’s belief that someone who didn’t go to a big sports school would “regret” it when they were hanging around large screen TV’s in bars 15 years hence. I mean, really, to be in my late thirties or early forties and in a bar cheering on a sports team? – ew. To each his or her own, of course, but it’s like saying that I might really regret not going to a college that has easy access to a monster truck rally because look at all the people who enjoy them.</p>
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<p><em>sigh</em> hawkette, you many times so far on this board have asserted that certain schools, esp Duke, are superior to Cornell in the overall experience for students mainly due to the sports scene. This should indicate that you were saying all of the times that watching sports is clearly a better activity than other activities. </p>
<p>Also, like applejack and UCB pointed out, why drag Cornell’s name whenever this issue of “Duke superiority” is mentioned? And, why is this topic even relevant to this thread anyway? What about MIT, Caltech, Columbia, HYP, Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, etc? Since HYP is more prestigious than Cornell, you are making exceptions for these schools, but not Cornell…Your argument lacks cohesiveness and demonstrates some pretty clear bias. If you truly believe that the social atmosphere at Duke is superior to Cornell’s bc of the reasons that you have been citing so far, then you should also make straight claims that the overall experience that a student receives at Duke is superior to HYP as well and Duke happens to offer many more social options compared to HYP also.</p>
<p>Also, as I pointed out, what about Brown students? Brown students, for whatever reason, are ranked to be among some of the happiest college students in the U.S. by many surveys. Happier than Duke. You see, attending sports games and this aroused school spirit isn’t that much of an impact on many students’ social lives, esp. for the students who attend the schools that you happen to be talking about. (Cornell, Brown, “Penn minus Wharton”, etc.) Another big factor you should consider is that most cross admits, at say Penn or Cornell and Vandy, choose Penn or Cornell. If these cross admits sincerely cared “that much” about this whole footbal games, then the majority of the cross admits between Cornell or Penn and Vandy wouldn’t choose to attend Cornell or Penn. Instead, they would attend Vandy.</p>
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<p>Oh so you enjoyed that Cayuga? Too bad you didn’t congratulate me on my 1000th post. Feh.</p>
<p>I don’t understand why this is an issue specific to Cornell. Cornell at least has some decent to top notch D1 sport programs (LAX, hockey, basketball) while many Top 20 schools have almost non-existent sports or non-competitive sports teams. </p>
<p>I’m a huge sports fan and follow practically every sport in the country, at both the professional and college levels. I never missed sports while at Cornell because sports is alive and well at Cornell. The scale isn’t quite on the level of Oklahoma football or Duke basketball but it’s enough to satisfy most sports fans. I’ve never heard of anyone on the Cornell board complaining about the lack of sports to watch.</p>
<p>I actually loved that song about the hairy men of Cornell. Never heard that one.</p>
<p>I think I cracked this code based on other threads. Hawkette gets frustrated that Duke doesn’t have the same overall reputation schools in the Ivy League do (not trying to start a new debate - just generally speaking about the Ivy brand). Staying away from the HYP end, she sets her (assuming Hawkette is a she) sites on the easier targets of Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell, Columbia, and UPenn. It seems she drives particularly hard at knocking Cornell down, perhaps because it is most similar or perhaps because she has stated that without the Ivy League Cornell would plummet in respect. Absurd, given its consistent top 15 rankings in global universities. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, Hawkette’s trying to up-market her Duke brand by focusing on what it offers that other schools do not, and thus why this thread has devolved into this meaningless debate over spectatorship. </p>
<p>I believe I am finished here.</p>
<p>pizzagirl,
To your post # 202,<br>
I have often admitted my personal preference for the schools that can best offer great academics and the additional benefits of a great social scene and a great athletic life, but I hardly think that such schools are best for all students. Your repeated contentions of this are really grating and mendacious, if not downright malicious. What’s with all of the venom? Did someone along the way, who liked athletic life, do you wrong? </p>
<p>My hope is to inform and shine a light on differences that a student might want to investigate in their evaluation of a college. It could be class sizes, it could be graduation rates (4-yr and 6-yr), it could be weather, it could be Greek life. It could be any number of topics, including athletic life. Frankly, I think that most Cornell students (eg, CayugaRed) would agree with the great majority of my statements and perhaps challenge one or two, eg, Cornell’ athletic life strength vs Rice and/or Northwestern. But instead, you and applejack seem more intent on discrediting the entire idea that a student should consider this in the evaluation of a college. I obviously disagree and it is quite clear that we won’t agree on this point. My advice to students is to learn as much as possible about all aspects of undergraduate life (including athletic life) at prospective colleges. There are real differences in what is available at various schools. Some will care about these differences, some will not and some will not even have thought of them in going through their college search. Would you rather a student not be as well-informed as possible in making a college choice? </p>
<p>As to your latest post (# 205), glad to know now that you only consider participation in sports qualifies for you as a worthwhile activity. Is it possible that someone could participate in intramurals AND enjoy watching sports? Is it possible that such athletic events improve the quality of undergraduate life for some students, not to mention some alumni? And if a prospective student enjoyed going to big football games and such, then might he/she also consider this in assessing a school’s offering? Notre Dame’s intramurals are legendary…so are its football games. People like to do both. And what about for alumni who like to follow their college’s athletic teams, eg, Duke basketball, ND football, even Cornell hockey! </p>
<p>Let’s change topics as clearly you have a problem with the subject of athletic life. How else would you like to evaluate Cornell?</p>
<p>Besides, hawkette, mind you, many people at Cornell have TVs. We watch NBA, NFL, Pro Baseball, college football, college basketball games also. But, we only watch many games that ONLY matter and that are enjoyable to watch, not all those random games at college level that don’t matter. You really think that people would enjoy watching every single basketball or footbal game played by Northwestern team? Many REAL sports fans would be too bored to watch these games. In fact, as a huge Football and NBA fan, I can’t picture myself to be enjoying attending NU’s, Rice’s, or even Vandy’s or Duke’s (except Duke basketball) sports games, even if I was a student at any of these schools. I would be WAY too frustrated watching. Seriously, NU sports? Maybe NU students could go to Chicago and watch Chicago Bears or Bulls games for ‘real’ sports. These schools are no Ohio State, UMich, UTexas. I would only go to these games purely as a get away to socialize w/ buddies. But, here at Cornell, there are many ways in which I can get away to socialize and chill regardless.</p>
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<p>More Cornell boosterisms! </p>
<p>Watkins Glen racetrack is only 20 minutes from campus. Fantastic place to watch a NASCAR event if you have never been.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, on campus, the Cornell engineers annually compete with other schools to build a racecar. They win competitions all the time, and in 2007 they were the world champions.</p>
<p>[Cornell</a> Racing - Home](<a href=“http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu/]Cornell”>http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu/)</p>
<p>EDIT: The more this thread goes on, I’m just going to keep on throwing up more and more examples of what makes Cornell such a unique experience. So keep them coming.</p>
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<p>Cornell has one of the largest intramural programs in the nation, to say nothing of Cornell Outdoor Education, which boasts North America’s Largest Natural Rock Face Indoor Climbing Wall.</p>
<p>Keep 'em coming.</p>
<p>Applejack –</p>
<p>Here are the full lyrics to the song. It’s a song traditionally song by the Glee Club the night before the Cornell-UPenn football game, the winner of which is awarded the Trustee’s Cup.</p>
<p>Enjoy!</p>
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<p>And don’t get me started about the freshman up at Yale…</p>
<p>patlees,
Cornell is just the topic of this thread. I would make the same arguments in favor of Duke vs all of the Ivies. One modification is that I consider HYP (and SM) as being super-brands and thus their reps would likely trump nearly all other considerations. But I consider Duke to be an academic peer (or more) to all of the non-HYP Ivies and then I think you would get the social life and athletic benefits as well. I have a similar view of Vanderbilt and think its undergraduate package, when measured as a combination of academics/social/athletic, is also superior to the non-HYP Ivies. Ditto on ND although its remote location does somewhat limit the breadth and vitality of the school’s social scene. But its athletic scene is second to none.</p>
<p>Re your argument about attending all games as a college student, you are willing to accept that this goes on at Duke and is probably a pretty exciting event to attend and enjoy. Right? Are you aware that Vanderbilt drew 14,000+ to all of its men’s basketball conference games last winter or that ND football, despite a lousy year, drew 80,000 for each of its games. What you are not seeing is that these are major events and not just any ole Ivy League game with a handful of people in the stands. It’s a different scene.</p>
<p>On Northwestern, I’m willing to learn more from others (besides pizzagirl) who can contrast the scenes. And as for Rice, I’ve pretty much conceded that its athletic scene, outside of baseball, is similar to the Ivies.</p>
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<p>hawkette, I caught this previous response written before from you. You seem to be overestimating this whole “sports spectatorship” deal, even when these schools aren’t even that strong athletically. Case in point, my friend who attends U of I, says that the folks there were ecstatic and were much into the school spirit, etc, when their bball team made it very deep into the March Madness tournament 3 yrs ago. This yr, their team was bad. In fact, he tells me that no one really cared about any of the games anymore, only except for U of I vs Indiana game. Also, consider the pro sports. When the Yankees have a losing season, Yankee fans constantly jab at players who are struggling and many don’t even show up at games. How about the New York Knicks? They have been having terrible seasons last several years, and the New York fans, some of the best sports fans in the country, were not so excited about that. Actually, these fans were so darn frustrated that they chanted at every game “Fire Isaiah”, referring to the coach Isaiah Thomas and blaming him for the team’s losses. Eventually, this guy was recently fired. In the world of the sports, whether or not your favorite team is a winner or not has a huge bearing on its ability to stimulate interests, loyalty, excitement, and enthusiasm from the sports fans. Let’s get real.</p>
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<p>I think you are missing Hawkette’s point. A point I don’t agree with, but nevertheless a claim may be made. The sports, per se, isn’t the reason to attend these schools, the spectacle is.</p>
<p>But attend a game at Lynah, Hawkette, and then we can talk.</p>
<p>[YouTube</a> - Fish, Newspapers and a Great Goal - College Hockey](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dugXWiMGKk0&feature=related]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dugXWiMGKk0&feature=related)</p>
<p>[YouTube</a> - Cornell vs Harvard 2003](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q43q9xKsO50]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q43q9xKsO50)</p>
<p>My point isn’t that Cornell hockey is at the same level as football or basketball collegiate athletics, but for the student looking for the experience closest to an ND or Duke environment in the Ivies, Patriots, or top Division III schools, Cornell is the place to be. I’ll also add that Cornell fans are less fickle than those of many other schools. The Lynah Faithful will travel with team through thick and through thin, even when they are nowhere near to making the NCAA championships. For comparison’s sake, Princeton’s basketball fan base has completely fallen to the wayside in recent years.</p>