Is Edii Really Binding? I'd Like To Think I Had A Chance At Juilliard.

Allmusic · December 29, 2006, 6:29pm

Capt, I don’t see things that way at all.

Many, many, many kids attempt auditions, and not all of them are in the league to be accepted in a conservatory performing arts department, self selecting or not. Fact is, being the lead of the high school musical, or first chair violinist in the school orchestra, in no way indicates whether or not a student has the ability or talent to be accepted into a top BFA/BM degree program. There are so many talented kids that desire alone is simply not enough. It is different if someone in the business has independently told the OP she has the talent to audition for Juilliard.

Also, I have not experienced kids simultaneously auditioning for BFA/BM spots and applying to BA programs. Typically, kids who have the passion for performing arts would not be content in a regular college setting taking core requirements. I see the two types of kids as mutually exclusive, although there are loads of kids who want to perform avocationally in college, while studying something else. I am talking about those kids whose sole burning desire is music or theater performance, and little else. (I know of what I speak, raising one of these, and knowing lots and lots of music and theater kids).

Chedva · December 29, 2006, 6:49pm

I can’t see how it helps a student to say, “Gee, I really want to go here as my first choice, but only if my reach program says no.” I think it’s perfectly acceptable (and in fact happens all the time) to say, “Due to changed circumstances, I need to change my application from ED to RD.” You don’t need to explain. The change would probably be made by some administrative person; I doubt that the admissions committee will even know anything about it. But they may know if you give the “Juilliard” excuse, and I can only see that hurting you.

And don’t forget - schools with strong drama departments aren’t going to be impressed by an audition to Juilliard - if anything, they may be offended, as they believe that they have as good, albeit different, training programs.

cptofthehouse · December 29, 2006, 8:18pm

The Juilliard audition is such a shot to the moon that I hardly think that it will taken on the same basis as try for another school, but I am not about to predict what an adcom will think. I’ll ask some who have been in the field for 20 years and are used to dealing with selective schools, arts programs.

As for BFA, BA programs, I know tons of kids who applied to both, and would think that for some specialties, musical theatre in particular, you would be crazy not to have som BA, BM programs as a back up, given the accept rates. THat is not to say kids are not successful in auditioning to 6-10 programs and getting into some, but by not having a decent safety in hand, it goes against any advice I have heard from anyone in college admissions. The kids I have known applied to a number of BFA programs with auditions, and then weighed the situation against top schools that also have great performance opportunities. Some found that much as Harrt’s BFA MT program was wonderful, Brown was a preferred choice over all. Had they gotten into NYU, CMU or Michigan,it might have been a different choice. My son applied to BFA, BM and BA programs and it was a pretty tight race when it came to choice as he got into some great schools but not the program he wanted, some programs that he did not like the schools, and other combos. He had to really sift through everything before choosing. And, yes, he did apply to Juilliard, and Northwestern was most impressed–they knew it, he had to change his audition date with them for it as he was applying for voice for both. I know over 30 kids just offhand who mixed and matched their BFA and BA choices. Most got into both types of programs; most took the more prestigious school over the more selective program. I know several kids at the ivies who were accepted to Harrt, Emerson, Syracuse programs, but could not resist the call of the Ivies. But as I started this post, the chances of getting into some of these audition centered programs are so small, that wouldn’t you throw in some good artsy colleges that offer opportunities such as Skidmore, Goucher, where the kids’ stats give them a good chance of getting in,as safeties? I can’t imagine not having a safety of some sort when chances are so low. Kids get into Harvard who have been turned down from some of these programs.

Allmusic · December 30, 2006, 9:53am

I can’t speak for voice or musical theater, but for the top musicians we have known over the past four years, not a one applied to BA schools; they only applied to BM programs. My son apparently will take his chances, because although he has the stats to be admitted to an excellent LAC, he is disinterested in going that route, and wants only to pursue a performance degree. This seems to be common, at least among the small group of very talented musicians we know.

Does it make me worry that he has no safety? Yes, but then again, the drive and ambition for these kids is so strong that it has worked out for all of them in the past few years.

And no Skidmore or Goucher can begin to offer what a stand alone or university conservatory program can offer. Most of the kids we know would choose a gap year and reapply over some of those other options.

soozievt · December 30, 2006, 11:17am

I’ll share what I know from personal experience with my own kid, the many theater kids I personally know, and then the many clients whom I advise with their college admissions process who are going into theater or musical theater.

First, my own kid. My own kid was like AllMusic’s son. I realize this goes against what cptofthehouse is saying. My daughter ONLY applied to BFA in Musical Theater programs. She applied to 8 of them and the admit rates at all her schools ranged from 2-10% accepted. I do agree with cptofthehouse about having a BA safety in the mix and I’ll get to that in a moment considering I advise many students in creating such lists. However, as crazy as it may sound, my D did not have any safeties or BA schools on her list. She was certain of the BFA in Musical Theater path and considered no other type of degree. She knew the VERY TOUGH odds of admissions at each of these programs. However, while it was very uncertain at any one particular school if she could be accepted, we knew she was a valid “contender” to get into a BFA in MT program and thus felt she would get in somewhere, but didn’t know where. There are various benchmarks and ways to determine if you are in the ballpark and we knew she was. While it was scary due to the odds overall, we felt her odds getting in at least one program were decent. We were right as she got into 5 BFAs, one waitlist BFA, one acceptance to a college without the BFA, and one denial. She is going to one of her first choice schools, and one considered as a so called “top” school. She has many highly talented friends in this field who had similar college lists and indeed each of these friends ended up with a choice of BFA programs to attend. None of them had BA schools on their list.

However, I do know some highly talented musical theater kids who WANT a BA path but who I feel CERTAIN could be admitted to a BFA in MT (have won national awards in this field, for example). A few such friends chose to go to schools like Brown or Yale. For instance, one such friend also got into Tisch but preferred the BA path at Yale. I know quite a number of kids who had the talent to be admitted to a BFA but wanted to do the BA route, not a BFA. Some old timers here may recall a poster named Jamimom and her son applied to many top BFA programs in Musical Theater including the BFA in Acting at Juilliard, but he also applied to a couple of BA schools and got in EA to Yale and opted to attend Yale. So, I have seen kids who are of the BFA calibur in terms of talent who simply preferred a BA path.

Then, moving on to some of my clients, as well as my own niece who is a current college applicant for Theater/Acting. My niece is a good student and has chosen to apply to some BAs and some BFAs. I think her parents prefer a BA path. My feeling is that she may prefer a BFA path but is willing to consider either. Also, for THEATER, as opposed to MUSICAL THEATER, there are MANY BA programs where one can study theater/acting, whereas that is NOT the case with Musical Theater. A person going into straight theater has the option of doing a BA and then eventually a MFA. That is rarely the case with MT. So, she has more of a “well balanced list” compared to my daughter’s all BFA list.

I have clients who have chosen to apply to some BFAs and some BAs, be it for theater or musical theater interests. In some cases, it is to widen chances or fallback. But actually in several cases, they are not as sure and have chosen to apply to some of each and see what happens. My feeling is that in most of these cases, a BA would be the most fitting option because a BFA is for someone who is CERTAIN of that path and cannot see themselves pursuing another one. It is a HUGE commitment to a very focused program. So, at this point as a senior, if they are not sure if they want a BFA or a BA, though applied to some of each to keep options open, that uncertainty points in the direction of a BA to me as the best fit. I would agree, however, with cptofthehouse that in MANY cases, even if a student prefers to seek a BFA in a field like musical theater, that it is wise to have a back up BA program that has strong theater and MT opportunities and there are ones that exist. So, for my clients who do want a BFA, they have added a couple BA backups (example, Muhlenberg) that are good in this field. While my own daughter and her friends didn’t do that, I think they were all strong contenders to get into a BFA and indeed they all did. But for many of my clients, a BA backup is a wise choice.

Back to the OP…the fact that her ED school, which implies a FIRST CHOICE is a BA school (I infer), shows me that she is happy with the BA path and it is not a “fall back” but actually a first choice. If that is the case, surely telling the BA school that her reason for switching to RD is due to auditioning at Juilliard shows that she isn’t as keen on a BA or is uncertain as these are very very different degrees and even types of schools. Also, there is nothing impressive to say one has applied to Juilliard. Anyone can do so. Believe me, I have clients who do not have the “goods” who will put schools like Juilliard or Yale on their list and I can say with certainty that they have NO chance at these places. Changing the ED school to RD could simply be that she cannot commit yet. However, my guess is that if this OP chose a BA school as her first choice, that she is likely not the strongest contender for Juilliard (doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a chance) because most people who get into Juilliard are truly seeking a BFA path from the get go and do not have a BA school as their FIRST choice, but perhaps as merely an option or backup school. People who go to Juilliard really WANTED a BFA path.

MomofWildChild · December 30, 2006, 11:44am

I don’t know how MT works, but for vocal performance it is not that easy to get a Julliard audition. You have to submit a screening CD and then get invited to audition. I don’t see a problem with telling the ED school this, but I also don’t see a problem with not sharing this info.

soozievt · December 30, 2006, 11:55am

The OP is applying to Juilliard for Acting and there is no prescreening DVD. I have a client who applied to Juilliard for BFA in Acting and got her audition slot by filing her application. However, she recently was admitted ED to NYU/Tisch and has withdrawn all her other apps, including to Juilliard (for Acting).

cptofthehouse · December 30, 2006, 1:36pm

Soozie, I am glad that though your daughter chose to go pure BFA audition, that you are advising like kids to have at least a safety not dependent on audtion. Too much can happen when you are going on an audition basis, and everyone should have a safety school, unless they have other alternatives in mind should they not get into a program of their choice. I believe you mentioned that your daughter graduated a year early, and I would presume that she had other venues in mind if she did not get into one of her schools. It does happen even with very talented young people. About 6 years ago, one very talented young lady we knew ended up with no school because she went the audtion ony route. After a year of internship with a NY studio (NYU affiliated but not through NYU, kind of strange, actually), she was accepted to Steinhardt, which she completed and is now on tour. No doubt about the talent in this young lady, as she has been self sufficient on her talent–out of her parents’ pocket, but 6 (or maybe 7) years ago she was rejected by every one of her schoolss. She would have gladly gone to a Muhlenberg or anything at that point, but fell into a very deep depression with some stressful consequences for her and her family. Stangely enough (an aside here), she is the only one I know who did not get at least one audition acceptance of all the kids I know who have gone this route in the past 12 years when I have been kind of noting these things, and she is probably the most successful now that she is out auditioning and performing in the “real” world. The only others I know who are also performing in roles paying enough to support them, did not bother to go to any BFA program.

Though anyone can put Yale or Juilliard on their lists and follow up, I don’t think that many do. From what I hear most applicants are very, very good. Also when my son auditoned, there seemed to be a majority of non traditional students. I don’t know the breakdown, but those folks did not look any 18 years old to me, and my son confirmed that many already had a degree. Some were even professionals already. I don’t know what the number of straight out of highschool kids auditioning for these programs are. In my book, to complete the process for these schools is a task in itself, and if you go through the audition process, even more so, regardless of whether you get into the school. It takes a certain amount of moxie, energy, motivation and follow up. I 've seen kids shrink from the audition process when it comes time to do it. I can also say that I have seen two kids actually get into Juilliard that those in the field felt had no chance. They had a smashing audition. That is really what it takes to get into that program. The school BFA programs are a more thorough, and though that auditon is the centerpiece, they do look at the other factors, some schools more than others. Though CMU says they are 80% audition based, that 20% can count a heck of a lot when you have all that talent.

As to applying ED to as BA school, these kids are all over the map, even the ones I know who have ended up in the field. In fact the ones I know in NYC theatre as professionals now who are not kids often went to BA schools, and some applied to Juilliard as well and did nto get in. Some kids I know who prepared a year ahead for their auditions and had 10 BFA audition schools on their list, dropped them like hot potatoes when Harvard or Princeton accepted them early. And they may well join the theatre scene when they complete college. Some non BFA productions I have seen have been of far better quality than some BFA production, and these kids end up getting more opportunities to perform than some in the BFA route. We have close friends whose daughter just graduated from Tisch, and her resume does not have much on it from performances there; I am sure she is well trained, but she did not get big roles during her years there. We have seen performances at Harvard and Wesleyan that have been truly remarkable, and those kids active in theatre there have some amazing opportunities though not in a BFA program. I can tell you that I wish my son were in a BA program rather than a BFA, and I would have picked a school higher on the rankings, an LAC with good theatre opportunities had it been my choice. 
Also not everyone who gets into Juilliard goe there. I know of two kids in the last 10 years who turned down Juillard for a more balanced school. They wanted it as a possibility and would have gone there had their shots at some other prestigious schools gone awry. Even true prodigies like Yoyo Ma, some actors who have proven their talent, have chosen the top BA route which is no reflection on what their passion in life is. They just had a preference from their choices. With 18 year old kids, it is often difficult to nail down what they want. Which is the way it should be. When you have one that is truly dedicated to a path, sometimes they do not see other better opportunities and choices, and go down it even when it is not in their best interests. Some, of course, will do well with their directed vision, but there are times when it is wise to check out that forest around them. I do not see it strange or a flag that the OP wants to go ED2 to a school that I am assuming is selective to up her chances in getting into such a school, but is holding out for a Juilliard shot as well. THat seems typical to me in kids of that age even those in the performing arts fields, not unusual. The unusual ones, and I know a handful of them each year ,that are dedicated to audition only conservatory programs are unusual. Looking at 6 school application records over 5 years, I can pick out some kids through their profiles, and I don’t see any that applied only to conservatory/audition programs, even those who ended up at Juilliard and the like.

As to letting her ED school know what she is doing, I can’t say what is the right thing to do, and would go the conservative route which is saying as little as possible. If she wants the shot at Juilliard, she definitely should change the app to RD; I think that is a given. Judging where she might be in terms of chances at an audition, none of us can do that–the numbers at large are very, very small, but when it come down to it, you are either 100% or 0 in these things. And you won’t know until you go through the process. If she wants that chance, she should give up her preferred odds of ED.

Allmusic · December 30, 2006, 1:46pm

Cptn, then you know different kids than I do. We know a number of kids (no, not a large number, but certainly several) who apply only to stand alone or university based conservatories every year. It isn’t really that unusual, because we have several from just our one high school, not to mention our broader music network through music school, etc.

I will concur completely that the level of talent at top schools is amazing. We have seen even Arts Day student performances at Harvard that are simply incredible. We have had terrific musicians who graduate high school and go on to pursue degrees in a variety of subjects at top notch schools.

But for the student who wants to immerse completely in music or musical theater, a ranking uni or LAC is not top choice. I know it isn’t for my kid, because he isn’t interested in taking only 25% of courses required for a music major at an LAC, but in the 75% of courses in music required at a conservatory.

This is why I feel that there is less overlap between the BA and BFA/BM kids. I do not see them as having the same goals; not that there is a right or wrong in this, just that there is a clear difference.

soozievt · December 30, 2006, 2:16pm

cptofthehouse,
I did not realize that you have a son in the performing arts and doing a BFA program. Is he in theater? I do think straight theater has more options in terms of degree programs than musical theater.

In terms of my daughter and your reference to her graduating HS a year early and only applying to BFA programs and having had other venues in mind if she had not been accepted…honestly, no, she had NO other things in mind. We knew the very difficult odds of being accepted to BFA in MT programs but we also knew through various benchmarks, that she was a valid candidate who likely would be accepted to at least one BFA and we were right. Yes, that sounds chancy and yes, even the MOST talented MT kids get rejections, but every highly talented MT kid I know, got into a BFA program and the very talented ones got into more than one. Again, I advise my clients to have BA non audition backups. I also cannot know their level of talent as closely.

Again, I do know kids who WANTED a BA school even if they were strong contenders for a BFA program. One of my D’s close friends just got in EA to Yale and her friends like this boy prefer and seek Yale, Brown, Northwestern, etc. Surely at these schools there are highly talented MT kids. I know them. They wanted that sort of education and so I support such a decision. There is more than one path toward success in this field. And not everyone who attends a BFA in MT will be successful in MT, that’s for sure.

By the way, my D has a friend at Juilliard for acting. A small percentage of the class at Juilliard in the BFA in Acting program are straight out of high school. So, even though 20 slots are available, fewer of them go to graduating seniors.

I agree that the audition process for admissions is a grueling process. However, there ARE some who audition for BFA programs who are truly not in the ballpark. Granted that there are LOTS and LOTS of highly talented kids for the small number of BFA slots in this field but there are some who audition who just are not going to get in. This is even true with regular college admissions and people who apply to Ivies and such who are SO not qualified. Surely this is the minority of applicants, but they do exist. I have had to guide and advise clients who come to me with very UNREALISTIC lists based on their credentials. Had they not gotten such advice, they’d be applying to these top schools and have had NO chance.

By the way, at CMU, the audition counts 90%, not 80%. My D auditioned there and made the priority waitlist. While the audition is the main thing…there are so few slots (1200 audition, and they take approx. 10 for MT and 18 for acting…and they do not accept more to yield that number but accept the exact number of slots and go to the priority waitlist if someone doesn’t take the offer), that academics, etc. will matter when there are more who pass muster in the audition than slots available. In this regard, I have seen many talented applicants who do NOT have the academics for some of these schools. So, some applicants underestimate the importance of strong academic qualifications for SOME of the BFA schools.

You are right that many 17 year olds are not ready to make a commitment to a narrow path such as a BFA. I have a daughter who wasn’t ready to commit to architecture at age 17 and opted to not apply to BArch programs (kinda like the BFA process and type of decision) and chose the BA route for architecture and will go on to get a MArch degree. But SOME students really do know what they want to do at a young age (which is not better, but simply different). In my own family, my musical theater kid has been engaged in that field since preschool and her passion is very strong and it is truly a part of her being. She can safely say this is the field she wants to be in as she has done it her whole life. My architecture bound kid would not have known for sure at age 17 about her field because while she had begun to explore it some, she had not been immersed in it her whole life prior to college. She was not ready to commit yet. She was not willing to have 2/3 - 3/4’s of her coursework in one subject area. I know theater kids like that as well and that is why a BA route is best for them. For my MT kid, she wanted ideally a BFA program in MT, but in a school with strong academics as she is a very good student and enjoys learning about other things and so that mix was a big attraction at NYU/Tisch. The theater friends she has had for years who happen to be some of the most talented kids I have ever seen, all had only BFA schools on their list and they all are attending them now or have graduated already. Again, she has some equally talented friends who opted to do the BA route. The ones wanting a BFA, did not have BA schools on their list but these kids were truly contenders for a BFA and indeed, that is how it turned out for them, including top BFA programs.

For top talented kids in theater and I could say the same of top academic kids trying for elite academic schools, it is unpredictable which schools will take them due to the very low rates of admissions, but usually very top kids do get into SOME place. I have a daughter who applied to some elite academic colleges and we had no idea which ones would take her as the odds are tough, but we were confident she’d get in somewhere because we knew she was a true contender in that league. Same with my BFA kid. I had no idea which schools would accept her and the odds were daunting even for very qualified kids, but I felt almost certain at least one school would. I can’t say that for all kids. There are various benchmarks to know if one is a contender. Even with those, one can be denied at many places but usually such a candidate gets in some place.

cptofthehouse · December 30, 2006, 2:20pm

Yes, we do know different groups of kids. I do not deny that the kids that you know do not exist. I have seen some of them. I have also seen the other side. Living in the New York area, many of the kids here are in top performing arts programs, and many of them want to take a gander at auditions. Many of the instructors here are professionals working on Broadway, Carnegie Hall and other performing arts venues of the highest level, so many of these kids are encouraged to audition. Many more than from where I used to live in the Midwest where only the most serious kids went that route. This year at my son’s school which is not a performing arts school, more than a dozen kids are auditioning for acting/MT programs alone. None of them are going just BFA, however. Most of them are strong students also applying to ivies and other competitive colleges. And several that I know of are applying to Juilliard as well; it’s only a half hour away from here. Where I lived before, only one student in a class of 700 was accepted to NYU, in this area, a quarter of the kids are accepted there. Most of the kids apply there. Big difference just from geographics.

Music performance is a different thing. My experience with kids who want to go into that is similar to yours. Though some do end up in regular colleges, those who are truly commited will go to a conservatory or a BFA program that is similar to that of a conservatory within a university. Though even there I know of two who went to Harvard–one turned down both Curtis and Juilliard for Harvards. He graduated from Harvard this year, a very talented violist and from a major symphony family. The young lady we know who is a violist at Juilliard also applied to Harvard and Yale, and I don’t know what she would have done had she been accepted. Another whose parents again are top level musicians, went to Yale, played in their non major orchestra after switching from music as a major, and ended up in law school. She too was accepted at Juilliard, and it was a big blow to her family when she chose Yale instead. I worked with a major youth symphony for 10 years and was on the board of a music school, so I know these kids and their stories well. I can say with absolute certainty that there is a mix of school types chosen for college even for many kids who are truly at the top of the performance hierarchy. These kids are Curtis and Juilliard material as some of them have gotten into those schools, and even those who did not, in music performance, you have to send a tape to audition, so even auditioning is an honor.

Theatre and MT are a whole different venture, and a big,big thing here because of where we live. Many kids auditioning, some in hopes of getting into a better school for their talents than their grade/scores will give. It works sometimes too. It is a pretty strong hook for the non auditioning schools to have these talents and be in some of these programs, and for some kids professional shows. Non audition schools have to judge a paper profile in determining how good these kids are and they look for a variety for things in perusing the activities. Being in the Young Juilliard program, and orchestra is a true feather in the cap, and a sign of excellence, I know. Auditioning and performing in NYC is another strong kudu. It seems to me many of these kids get into HPY and co, albeit with excelllent academic profiles as well, but our school takes the trouble to footnote them as performing arts hooks as well when they follow them during their college app odyessey. Other footnotes are URM, athlete, development, national/international recognition, name recognition, legacy, 1st gen in college, exceptional challenge. This is to distinguish from the BWRK with high academic stats applying. The performing arts kids seem to do very well. It does appear to be a great hook, if the level of performance is high.

cptofthehouse · December 30, 2006, 2:54pm

I understand that you felt that neither of your daughters needed true safety schools, and you were right. I live in an area where that would be a true risk, as we are overrepresented in every selective school in terms of geographics. Brown has out and out said that it is tougher for kids from here to get in, because they could have a school predominently of kids from this area. Our college counselors stress SAFETY, SAFETY, SAFETY schools. And I believe that CC counselors do the same from what I have seen posted about safties from the moderators of this board. As I mentioned in a post above, one of the most talented young women I have ever seen–proven now by her current activities was rejected from ALL of her auditon only schools. It does happen. Just as a young man like Andymom’s son (name may not be right) was not accepted at some schools that should have taken him by all probabilities. It happens, and around here it happens far more often than most places because of the heavy competition and the geographics.

I will talk to you off board about my son’s particulars. I started down that path right now and realized we are going soooo OT that it is not fair to the OP and the board.

The one thing I am sure about is that the OP should change her status to RD if she want to give the Juilliard audition a shot. I think we are all in agreement about that. I also do not believe that the fact that she is applying ED indicates that she may not make Juilliard or is not going to end up there if she gets in. I know too many kids who were all over the place during their process actually end up at Juilliard or a BFA audition spot after professing their preference for other things. My son was one of them; but there are many, many others. That your daughter, and the kids you know are singularly directed does not mean that there are not many kids who are not that way. And some of the more scattered ones are the ones who end up very successful in the field when they finally decide what they want to do. It does make it easier if you really know what you want and can tunnel vision your way there, but it does mean sometimes foregoing some great opportunities that may help you later on, if you should decide to change your direction, or even to make you a better rounded person. Around here a Juilliard audition, or doing the auditions means that you are interested, confident enough and motivated enough to go throught the time, trouble and expense which is considerable. It means something to me, and I am in an area that has many more kids auditioning than the norm because of our proximity to Broadway and other top performing arts and music venues. Teachers here brag about how many they have auditioning and they encourage it for their talented kids. Now how that plays to admissions is not something I can say, and I have admitted that. It was an opinion only, and could very well be wrong. In fact if there are enough people who view it as a negative, given an adcom is human, it is enough of a risk to keep the audition info private. I am going to ask oour very conservative college counselors and an adcom I know how they view the info, but really it is the mindset of the adcom who has to process the info who counts, and if it there is any controversy or disagreement, the way to go is the conservative and least information route.

My son got into better schools than he deserves in term of BA programs strong in the arts, and they all knew he was auditioning,some knew about the Juilliard auditions. He got into several MT programs, several acting programs, but not NyU, Michigan,CMU and Emerson MT programs which were his top choices, though he got into other programs at the school, acting only for E and Nyu, and Michigan, the School of Humanities & SS at CMU, waitlisted for acting. He had a mixed batch of choices and he changed his mind even after the deadlines. 
Given that the OP is not 100% certain what she wants to do, and knowing that kids do change their minds a lot, ED doesn’t look like the way to go. We don’t know her other alternatives. Are they all BA schools or does she have other audition programs? If she just wants to audition to Juilliard for the experience, that’s one thing, but if she is vaccilating among many choices as my son and a number of his classmates were, it may be too early to lock into a school. Unfortunately, a number of these kids each year change their minds after the decision is supposed to be final. I did not know that sometimes you can finnagle your way into a choice and back out of another with a school’s permission (not a recommended process, a real pain in the neck), but kids do it who are truly torn in which way to go. On the other hand, maybe ending the process early would have been the way to go.

soozievt · December 30, 2006, 3:55pm

cptofthehouse, I had no idea all this time reading your posts on CC that your kid was in musical theater and is pursuing a BFA. You ought to visit the MT Forum one of these days!

I do not quite get what you mean how at NYU, Michigan, and CMU, that he did not get into the BFA in MT but got accepted to the university itself. Hmm, I did not think that was possible at those particular schools as a BFA applicant. At NYU, if applying to Tisch, you are either accepted to the BFA or not accepted. You cannot be accepted to NYU itself academically and denied for the BFA. You can only apply to one school at NYU, as well. At UMich’s BFA in MT program (just talking the MT program now), they review your application academically and you must be invited to audition, as my D was. But that is not an academic acceptance to the university itself. If denied to the BFA in MT, you are denied to the school to my knowledge. Perhaps your son ALSO applied to the acting program, however, there, and then I understand it. My kid only applied to the BFA in MT at UMich. At CMU, they will consider you for either the BFA in MT or Acting, which my D got on the Priority Waitlist for. It wasn’t like she had an acceptance to CMU itself in hand, nor do I believe that is possible if an applicant to the BFA in Drama program there. You either get into the BFA or not accepted to CMU at all. Perhaps your son applied ALSO to a different school at CMU.

At Emerson, indeed it is possible to be admitted to Emerson but not to the BFA if an applicant to the BFA. In fact, my D did EA to Emerson, was accepted to Emerson itself and deferred for the BFA in MT and ultimately denied the BFA in April. HOWEVER, you wrote that your son got in for acting at Emerson but had applied there for a BFA in MT. To my knowledge at Emerson, you can ONLY apply to ONE of the theater degree programs and ONLY be considered for one (unlike some other programs such as CMU or Tisch). You have to specify either BFA in MT, BFA in Acting, BA in Theater Studies (which has a Performance Concentration) and is by audition, or the BA in Theater Studies (no audition). The latter is not referred to as an “acting program”.

I want to emphasize that I indeed do know many who have both BFA and BA schools on their list. I mentioned that my D’s theater pals who wanted and preferred a BFA had only BFA schools. But she also has pals who preferred a BA path. HOWEVER, MANY of my clients have been advised by me based on their wishes, interests, goals, qualifications, etc. to have BOTH BFA and BA schools on their list. I have several right now (as is the case with my niece too) who have both BFA and BA schools out of choice as they are keeping several options open. The ones who are CERTAIN of a BFA path, however, have all BFAs and two fallback BAs. Most need that fallback BA. Trust me, I agree. I do not think my D needed it, nor would consider it, and as nutty as it may sound, she had all BFAs and we were right, as was the case with her very talented peer group who sought that path. But I would not say this is the way to do a list for many others.

By the way, I must have not been clear before, but my non-MT seeking D, who is now going to an Ivy, had a well balanced list of reaches, matches and safeties which is what I have ALL my clients do. So, I do agree with you on that need. That is not the way it worked for my BFA seeking kid, however. It may sound wacky but I felt she would get into at least one and I was more than correct and so was the case with others we knew of a certain calibur who had the benchmarks necessary. These are kids from all over the country, not from our HS. In fact, nobody from our HS goes for this…very rare indeed. My D went to an unknown rural public HS. We also have no performing arts high schools in our state.

I agree that the OP is unsure of what she wants to do because she wants the option of Juilliard should it happen (slight as the chances may be) and would consider a BFA and not only a BFA but a stand alone conservatory, as well as seems very into a particular BA school enough to sign a binding ED letter of intent. So, for someone who wants options and is not ready to commit, ED is not the way to go. Neither of my kids did ED in fact. While my D did end up at NYU/Tisch, one of her first choices, a school she has wanted to attend since age 12, she wasn’t ready to commit to one school ED. My other D was not ready to commit to ED either. The OP doesn’t sound ready to commit either and wants the flexibility that RD and EA affords. Therefore, she should apply RD, if she wants to see what happens with Juilliard. Or she should keep the ED to her BA school and see what happens with Juilliard for the sake of knowing, but she still must attend the ED if accepted. However, if she hears from the ED school BEFORE the Juilliard audition, she must withdraw her candidacy. Them’s the rules. She signed a paper outlining the rules. Schools hold you to the rules. Her GC also should hold her to it.

Generally speaking, those who really want options once in college should likely seek a BA route, rather than the narrow focus and commitment that a BFA requires.

I am a college counselor at CC. The majority of MODERATORS of this board are not college counselors. As a college counselor, I strongly believe in safety schools.

quiltguru · December 30, 2006, 4:02pm

soozievt, at University of Michigan, you can apply as a BFA/MT or you can apply to both L, S, & A (School of Literature, Science, and Arts) AND to the other fine arts schools (Music, MT, Theater, etc). It is conceivable that you can be accepted to L, S, & A and NOT to the MT program (BFA), and this, indeed, has happened to my D’s friend this year. She, thus far, has also been accepted to Oklahoma City’s MT program, but was accepted to the Music but not the MT program at Otterbein, and has the remainder of her apps pending her Unified auditions (I think these are coming up soon?). Last year, my D applied to both L, S, & A and the Music School (combined BA/BM program), but withdrew after being accepted and decided to attend Yale.

soozievt · December 30, 2006, 4:09pm

Thanks quiltguru for explaining that someone can apply to LS and A at UMich and to either the Music, MT, or theater programs as well. Those I know applying to Michigan for MT, only applied for that. Thus, I concluded that cptofthehouse’s son had more than one application into UMich because someone who only applied to the BFA in MT at UMich and didn’t get into it, would then not be offered a regular acceptance to UMich. Same with at CMU and so I gather his son applied to another school at CMU in addition to the drama school. At NYU/Tisch, I don’t quite understand what he is saying because you can only apply to ONE school at NYU and if it is Tisch, you are either accepted to the BFA or not accepted at all. You can’t be accepted just academically if an applicant to Tisch. At Emerson, you can only apply to one theater program and so if applying to the BFA in MT, you can be denied the BFA but be accepted to Emerson itself (happened to my kid) but not to the Acting program. A person could do the non audition based BA in Theater Studies there if denied admittance to the audition based program to which he had applied. That is not an acting program, however. I was confused by the statement of having gotten in for acting and not MT at Emerson.

Good luck to your D’s friend who is already doing well with one BFA to a MT program!

cptofthehouse · December 30, 2006, 4:24pm

I was not specific enough. You can get accepted to Tisch and not to the MT school which is CAP24. Some kids (my son) do not like some of the other choices. At Michigan you can apply to any number of programs but the involve a number of auditons if they are MT, acting, voice/instrument performance. I believe in Emerson, he did apply MT and did indicate he would also go acting if not accepted MT, and that was a go. Will have to check that. He did get into something there, but it was not MT. The same occurred to him at Ithaca, did not get into MT , but did get into Acting. There was some discussion on that one where he could have had something for the following year, but he was not interested in pursuing it. As he had about 20 schools with different options on his plate, I am not 100% sure anymore exactly what the situations are. Just know where he was accepted but not happy with the score. He also had acceptances to Goucher, Wheaton and some other schools with good theatre programs but no BFA., Was rejected for Purchase, Juilliard. Was rejected by Brown, Wesleyan, Vassar, His best choices were schools with BFA components but not for the MT programs. He did not like Roosevelt, Boston Conservatory, Harrt where he was accepted for MT. Aborted the process for Penn State and some other school where he just did not like the environment. Has some unusual school acceptances as well.

Allmusic · December 30, 2006, 5:04pm

Yikes. I need a little blue pill to make it through this process.

soozievt · December 30, 2006, 5:07pm

cpt…your son is doing a BFA in MT, right? Trying to follow it :D. It is really cool and I just never knew you have a kid in this field and you haven’t ventured over to the MT Forum!

Right about UMich…and I assume your son applied to more than one program there. My D, nor her friends, did not. They only applied to the BFA in MT there.

At Emerson, UNLIKE Ithaca, Syracuse, Tisch, CMU for example, you can ONLY apply to ONE of the audition based theater programs and ONLY be considered for ONE. If you don’t get one, they don’t offer the other. So, you can’t be denied for MT but then get into the BFA in Acting there or the BA in Theater Studies Performance Concentration (an audition based program) but you could attend Emerson if accepted and there is a BA in Theater Studies non audition major.

At Ithaca, when you apply for the BFA in MT, you can specify if you wish to be considered for either the BFA in MT or the BFA in Acting or just one. My D said just MT. She got into the BFA in MT. A friend of hers who put down “either” but was trying for BFA in MT, got in for Acting and he is attending the BFA in Acting at Ithaca.

At CMU, you are automatically considered for BFA in Acting even if you are auditioning for the BFA in MT there. You can’t say “just one”. In fact, while my D did not get offered the BFA in MT there, she was waitlisted for the BFA in Acting there (she truly wanted MT even though the acting program there is top notch). They took three girls her year for MT. She did not apply to other schools at CMU.

I understand now what you meant with NYU/Tisch. When you had said previously that he was accepted but not for MT…I thought you meant accepted to NYU but not the BFA which cannot happen there. My D does have friends who wanted CAP21 (the MT studio that my D is in) but who were offered acting studios instead. Some of these kids opted to not attend as they had also gotten into top BFA in MT programs such as CCM and UMich. However, I know plenty of kids who were still happy to attend Tisch if assigned an acting studio. I have had two clients interested in MT at Tisch but were willing and happy to accept an acting studio there and have done so.

Your son had a much longer list of schools with many options. If he was undecided in the fall and wanted a lot of options, that made sense for him. My own kid only wanted a BFA in MT and thus had 8 schools. I don’t know how many BFA auditions your son had to do but 20 schools is a lot of work. The admissions process for BFA programs is quite overwhelming and involved.

cheers · December 30, 2006, 5:35pm

Jane2–what makes you think you have a shot? If you REALLY thought you had a shot–I think you would have known that from the outset–and you would have been strongly encouraged–and you wouldn’t have applied Ed II to another school.

You might wish you had a shot–but that is another matter.

Jane2 · December 30, 2006, 6:11pm

Thanks everyone. I changed to R, and I appreciate all your help.

Is Edii Really Binding? I'd Like To Think I Had A Chance At Juilliard.

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