<p>Throwing this into the mix (not that it reflects my personal opinion, as my definition of “worth it” goes far beyond financial ROI):</p>
<p>[Only</a> 150 of 3500 U.S. Colleges Are Worth the Investment: Former Secretary of Education | Daily Ticker - Yahoo! Finance](<a href=“Only 150 of 3500 U.S. Colleges Are Worth the Investment: Former Secretary of Education”>Only 150 of 3500 U.S. Colleges Are Worth the Investment: Former Secretary of Education)</p>
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Yes, without knowing the cost of alternatives, it’s difficult to give a specific answer. If it was a choice of a full ride at by 5th choice school vs full cost at Stanford, I’d go with my 5th choice school. If it was full ride at SUNY Albany vs full cost at Stanford, I’d choose Stanford. During my senior year of high school, I was a half time student at SUNYA, so I know the school well. Nearly every aspect of my experience at Stanford was far superior – the teaching and how genuinely interested the school is, the students and interesting people I met and know today, the resources, the opportunities both on campus and in surrounding areas, the scheduling, the interesting things going on at campus, being exposed to so many diverse ideas and people, etc. That’s not even considering impact on career and life after graduating.</p>
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Note that the specific schools are heavily biased towards engineering schools since the average salary of engineering majors is greater than most humanities majors. There also a smaller effect of school location.</p>
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You are assuming all employers act like the few people in one industry that you spoke with. The impact of the degree varies quite a bit depending on the employer and industry. For example, a Linkedin search of the top 5 colleges attended by current employees of Google with an engineering job title shows that the order matches the top 5 US News grad school CS rankings when sorted by ranking, then distance for ties in ranking. In contrast the top 5 at Lockheed Martin shows no obvious bias towards colleges that rank highly at USNWR. To compare across a large number of companies, one could use the Payscale data linked in Jea828’s post. Comparing colleges in similar locations with similar percentage of engineering degrees, there is an obvious bias towards certain schools. For example, Stanford was listed as having a 30-year ROI of $1.2 Million, while the nearby San Jose State was under $300k. As I stated in my earlier post, I expect the majority of this difference relates to the people, rather than the school.</p>
<p>Re your post #184: maikai, I’ve been on these boards for years and have read and/or participated in most of the threads on this topic. I’m merely stating my observation that during these discussions, when numbers are cited and anecdotes are given in favor of the position that the school attended doesn’t matter, the most common examples chosen have to do with engineering. This makes sense in part because of the nature of the major (what must be learned to be a safe engineer, the difficulty of the material itself, and the fact that the engineering schools of state universities tend to have higher entry requirements), as well as because engineering has been a relatively weaker program at certain Ivies than their other programs–something H, for one, is trying to remedy.</p>
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<p>I can’t recall seeing an ad from any elite school on TV or radio, or my kids getting an unsolicited mailer from them. I do hear a lot from other lower tier colleges.</p>
<p>A lawyer compared two law schools in the state, both highly regarded. One teaches what to do, the other teaches how to think.</p>
<p>I was at a HS math competition and was talking to another parent who is math professor. He said that AP Calc in the HS is inferior to Calc in college. Colleges go into much more depth. I would add that the elite engineering colleges go even deeper because their kids can handle it.</p>
<p>Kids who have a deeper understanding can make intuitive leaps in minutes that other kids may never think of.</p>
<p>What’s the ROI of being the President of the United States?</p>
<p>[List</a> of Presidents of the United States by education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Presidents_by_college_education]List”>List of presidents of the United States by education - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>While there are non-elite colleges on the list, one could argue that there is a disproportionate representation from the elite ones.</p>
<p>I’d like to see a ROI list for history or english majors at the various colleges. I know if you major in CS or engineering you are employable, but not everyone is cut out for those careers.</p>
<p>We do a lot of things for our children that cost money without considering ROI issues. I see no difference in colleges. Yes, getting a kid to do engineering, accounting, nursing is more likely to be a good return on your college money than an anthropology, political science, and other such major. i think most of us know that. But if you have kid who has no interest in the more lucrative fields. pushing the matter is not such a good quality of live endeavor for all concerned at times and the bottom line is you can’t push a noodle. If the kid really doesn’t want to do it, he won’t. </p>
<p>I don’t look at my home or my kids’ college as investments. Nor did I so consider little league, music lessons and all the other things that I did with my children. They are quality of life, and the way to live ones life. And when looking at prestigious universities, it’s more whether or not I, DH, my kids want them to have the experience and fulfilling the desire to go to them, rather than a value judgement. Like anything else, if it’s truly not affordable, it’s off the table, and with selective school, you gotta get accepted first. But, yes, I think if a school is a kid’s first choice for whatever reason, even if it’s due to prestige, and if you can afford it, it’s worth the premium. I would happily pay it. But scrub port a johns for it, truly threaten health, or move into a dangerous neighborhood, leave so little for retirement that I would be in trouble, nope, not worth it. But every person, family has defintions of affordability. Go on an austerity regiment, I’d do, and am doing though I don’t like it. Some of my kids picked schools that were at the top of what we decided we could afford when there were very good less expensive choices. But we wanted the to have what they wanted as long as we could afford it. Just as we will help them buy cars, but a new Mercedes, or BMW is off the table, I expect we’ll help as we can for their buying a home, but again, it’ll be an affordability issue.</p>
<p>Nothing new about dropouts doing well, or those from unknown schools. Those good at what they do, and are lucky enough to find the opportunities will generally succeed. But when one looks at over all stats, it’s pretty clear that the odds are better with certain backgrounds. Most college dropouts are not going the Scott Walker, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates routes. If you have a dream about sitting on the Supreme Court, it’s pretty danged clear what ups your odds these days.</p>
<p>Mathmom, CMU English majors can do VERY well. Their Technical Writing Program under the English department is great prep for inroads into jobs.</p>
<p>Going out on a limb to suggest that the alumni network that S has accessed at his college are worth the price tag. He at first sought out opportunities in business - interned summer before sophomore year at a major bank, summer before junior year at big four accounting firm. Both these opportunities presented themselves as a result of the alumni network. At some point he shifted gears to seeking a career in the film industry. Now this year in the summer before senior year he landed two part-time internships. One for a major TV station doing development and production work, and the other for a company that specializes in comedic film and TV doing pre-production work. Again, both opportunities came through the college’s alumni network.</p>
<p>Edit: Oh, and this would be considered an “elite” college</p>
<p>Okay, you’ve got me. My education, my husband’s, and my two kids’ (so far) have been a complete waste of money and simply show our susceptibility to the siren song of elitism and marketing. What’s more, the doctorates we have, and the doctorate my daughter is getting (at a state school, so there’s hope for us) are indicative more of the failure of the private college system than its success. Our value for education for its own sake is wrong, silly, and not backed up by research. Clearly, the only reason to attend college is to earn a higher salary than if you didn’t, and if you graduate and don’t earn vast quantities of money, you are a failure in life as well as at school. </p>
<p>But let me encourage you, if this is how you feel, to contact your congressperson to push for better funding for state schools. Because the anti-intellectualism displayed here is having the effect of increasing costs for state schools to the point at which the working person cannot afford them–posterchild, California. Whereas when we went to school, states subsidized their schools with the conscious desire to educate as many people as possible, with the idea that an educated work force is a win for all of society, the ideology of “if you want it you have to work for it” has devolved into “do it on your own, bud,” and society can bloody well fend for itself. “Why should I pay for someone else to go to school?” is no longer answered by, it makes sense for all of us as a whole, strengthening society and making us all richer not merely materially but spiritually, but by “yeah! that’s right! Those lazy good-for-nothings should get off their duffs and earn their own way.” Somehow the fact that anyone who has ever been to a state school was subsidized by all of society gets lost in the argument that “I’m better than those saps who go to private colleges because I got what I wanted cheaper.” Education is expensive, and someone has to pay for it, whether collectively or not. I support state schools, I believe in education for all, and I believe in a variety of educational experiences, which will suit a vast variety of people. Part of that, of course, is that as a historian I understand the value of educating the populace, while as a person who went to school for the love of learning for its own sake I think (misguided though I no doubt am) that those who want that experience should have it too.</p>
<p>cpt,
Nice post, it expresses my sentiments. </p>
<p>The worm had a choice of a few good UGs. Had he been sure of a CS major, he would have chosen a different UG. The school he chose was known to only a few people in our area. He got a great education, got into top grad schools in his field, earned a NSF grant. If he goes into academia, he needs the pedigree and the connections. If he choses a research position in industry, that’s fine too. The worm’s path has had many twists.</p>
<p>Others in his grad program came from good colleges, and one from a local state U. I suspect this person proved to be an outstanding student in her/his UG. In general, the research opportunities one had as an UG, and who they worked for, matters a great deal in applying for grad school.</p>
<p>The Val in his class was set on med school. He went to the state flagship Honor’s program for free, and now is there in med school. My little cousin did the same, and is a very successful physician (he’s in his 40’s). Another relative did the U Miami UG/med school 6 year program. </p>
<p>My point? So much depends on the child’s goals. If med or law school is in the future, finances would definitely enter the picture so much more when thinking about UG.</p>
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Maybe it’s because we feel sorry for their kids.</p>
<p>I guess there are people who want their kids to go to highly selective schools because they think this will result in their kids ultimately making more money. That’s not me, though. In fact, I think it’s highly likely that one or more of my kids will make less money as a result of where they are in school, because they are more likely to go into academia than if they had gone elsewhere. I think some folks just don’t believe me, and others like me, who say that it’s just really cool and energizing to be around a lot of really smart, motivated, high-achieving people, especially if you’ve attended a high school in which such students are in a tiny minority. Parents who have had kids attend something like CTY know what I’m talking about.</p>
<p>Is it a luxury? Sure. It’s not worth giving up your house for. But, in my opinion, it’s worth giving up your second house for. And if you can get it for a huge discount, like many people of modest financial means, it’s an incredible deal.</p>
<p>marysidney - support of state schools to better fund education is a grand though perhaps not realistic goal. S attended elite school for roughly the same amount as flagship state. For D, elite is a fraction of the cost of state flagship. Of course, I live in IL, so…</p>
<p>Back when employers used to train people, they looked for Ivy grads because they thought that people had the most potential to learn and grow with the company over many years. Today, they are mostly looking for people who already have the exact skills the company needs, which means they look at your work history rather than where you went to school. It’s pretty short-sighted, because people who make it through the best schools are the most talented generally and will contribute the most over time, but the corporate world is all short term thinking today.</p>
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<p>Well said. SecondToGo transfered after his freshmen year to a highly-selective school (I will not use the elite tag). He’s a great kid … when he got his transfer acceptance he hesitated a bit with accepting the offer so we got him to sit down with us and talk about what his concerns were … he was concerned about our paying a lot more for schooling … and he was concerned about the expense because he has no interest in making a lot of money and “only” wants to be a teacher. </p>
<p>Only?, I know the smile on my face was wider than my face … and for Mom3ToGo, who is a teaching focused prof, I think her heart was about to explode in pride. If he believes his school choice helps him become a better teacher … we’re all in in supporting his choice. I’m sure any ROI analysis says this was a dumb choice … I’m sure the kids he teaches and mentors will have a better educated teacher than if he had stayed at his first school.</p>
<p>Don’t get my wrong I think he was having a very good experience at his first school and he was going to do fine if he had stayed there … for him, I believe the transfer upped his educational experience … and both he and his students will benefit from this incremental improvement.</p>
<p>Marysidney, education for it’s own sake is a noble concept, but what about the kids who are accumulating six figure debt with little or no prospects for gainful employment?</p>
<p>Do you think there is nobility in being a debt slave?</p>
<p>Blame the government for driving up prices through subsidized low interest loans.</p>
<p>And if you want to improve the quality of education, let’s open up public schools competition rather than be held hostage by teacher’s unions.</p>
<p>You say that you are for education for all. Any sane person would agree with that. But are we providing that? Clearly no as we are trapping many kids in failed schools and giving them no alternatives. And don’t give me the old saw that we aren’t spending enough. That’s rubbish.</p>
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What about them? Who, on this thread at least, is advocating that?</p>
<p>Nobody is making extreme claims for an “elite” education on this thread. All the hyperbole is coming from those who think it’s worthless, a sham, etc.</p>
<p>I don’t regret the money spent on my education, or on my kids’. You know what I do regret? Buying a car with no air conditioning to save money when I could have afforded air conditioning. But I was young at the time.</p>
<p>Paraphrased from Wikipedia: In defense against charges that Supreme Court nominee G. Harrold Carswell was “mediocre”, U.S. Senator Roman Hruska, a Nebraska Republican, stated:
“Even if he were mediocre, there are a lot of mediocre judges and people and lawyers. They are entitled to a little representation, aren’t they, and a little chance? We can’t have all Brandeises, Frankfurters and Cardozos.”</p>
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<p>Very nicely stated. What else am I going to spend my money on that gives me such psychic returns? The only other thing I can think of is travel. I’m not interested in furs and diamonds or expensive sports cars. We worked very hard for our money for a reason – so that these are experiences our children can have. It’s “worth it.” </p>
<p>We’re planning a trip to see D in Boston this summer, when she will be there for summer school. Is it “worth it”? Golly, it’s going to cost us money and we aren’t going to get raises at work as a result of going. Guess it’s not “worth” the ROI.</p>
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<p>Wow, that’s quite a leap. Saying that an elite education is worth the price for some of us doesn’t mean that we advocate that someone who has a full ride at Pretty Good U should go into six-figure-debt for Elite U. Of course “worth it” is all relative to what one has and what one values.</p>