<p>There are top notch professors at many colleges, but all the professors at an elite school are highly qualified and often in more ways than one: their educational background, their past and current research, their life/employment experience. It’s very inspirational to talk to people who have reached the pinnacle in your prospective field. D recently found an advisor for her second major. Before he became a professor, he worked at the highest level possible in his field. D was able to consult with him about the pros and cons of two different summer internships vis a vis her career goals. He succeeded in getting where she wants to go, so he was able to help her make a good decision. D was so inspired after their talk, and even more excited when he wrote her an e-mail congratulating her on a good presentation. You can’t put a price tag on what it means when a student can see his or her own potential and dream big with a path in mind. This is especially true if the student comes from the middle or lower class where s/he isn’t surrounded by adults like that prof and thus have a sense that people like him or her just don’t do those kinds of things.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>And in recent history it’s going beyond just elite; it’s getting focused on just two schools: Harvard and Yale. From Jan. 1989 to at least Jan. 2017 the presidency will have been occupied by someone with degree from either Harvard or Yale (or both). And that still would have been true if Romney had won. That’s 7 consecutive presidential terms, 28 straight years. That’s a pretty strong trend.</p>
<p>While this is true, the chances of anyone becoming president (or a SC justice, for that matter) are so incredibly low I don’t think that reads as an argument for going to an elite school. I think there are more than enough reasons to suggest it’s a good thing without having to invoke presidents and SCJs.</p>
<p>Why are folks reluctant to endorse the social/societal advantages? How did “elite” and “prestige” come to be dirty words to be danced around at all costs? Many seem to agree that the benefits go well beyond ROI and that in some cases LESS money career-wise may be anticipated with no dent in the impression that there is still a desireable advantage nevertheless.</p>
<p>Given the quality of the presidents we’ve had for the last five decades or so, I’m not sure if this is an argument FOR or AGAINST.</p>
<p>
And? Aside from being a ridiculous statement from somebody who really knows nothing about them or their children, what have you folks accomplished with the hundreds of posts in dozens of threads? Has anybody changed anybody else’s mind on this? I haven’t seen it. </p>
<p>And I frankly don’t believe that’s the true rationale for these posts either, but that’s beside the point.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Oh, I agree. I was just pointing out what I consider to be a surprising statistic about our recent presidents. I don’t consider a high school kid planning to be the actual president of the US (or SC justice) to have a legitimate career plan. To be a successful politician, yes. To make it to the very top, no. Too much of a long shot. </p>
<br>
<br>
<p>It’s because those notions run counter to our national pretense of being a totally egalitarian and meritocratic society. That all you need to get to the very top of any and every endeavor are your own talents and hard work. </p>
<p>The idea that there is any advantage at all to an elite education is particularly unacceptable to any parents who deliberately chose to send their kids to a lower tier college for whatever reason. Thus, you will always see those parents arguing against any value to a high-end college education.</p>
<p>Conversely, parents (like me) who chose to spend the money to send their kids to high-end schools can usually be seen arguing that the whole effort and expense was somehow “worth it.”</p>
<p>And both sets of parents are probably quietly hoping that they are not wrong. The anti-elite crowd are hoping this for their kids’ sake. The pro-elite group are hoping it for their wallets’ sake.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Bravo. Though not completely true in every case, pretty much sums it up in general.</p>
<p>Even having never attended a so-called elite school, I believe there is significant value to attending these schools, but I also think that value is ridiculously overstated on here - both in amplitude and frequency. More significantly, I think the “dire” consequences of not attending such a school are completely overstated.</p>
<p>As someone who always like to take an investment approach to the argument i find this particularly interesting. In terms of this argument, this article would say that attending a prestigious university is probably worth it.</p>
<p>[College</a> Education Value Rankings - PayScale 2012 College ROI Report](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2012]College”>College Education Value Rankings - PayScale 2012 College ROI Report)</p>
<p>^^
That’s probably the tenth time this link (or the equivalent 2013 link) was posted in this thread.</p>
<p>A question to those who either attended an elite university themselves or have an offspring doing so. Was the idea of attending this classification of university always present? In other words, was it something you grew up with? Was it a topic around the Thanksgiving dinner table and part of your general social circle? Is your social circle populated by a statistically significant number of people who attended or whose kids attend these institutions?</p>
<p>I’m curious because it seems that most heartfelt desires and wants have their seeds planted early on and take time and nurturing to grow. IMO, the hot flame of desire and subsequent internal and external wrangling with this subject has increased dramatically over the past two decades. How much of this desire is fueled by the increasing scarcity (because now EVERYONE is entitled to/ supposed to/encouraged to attend University and everyone can get the funding) and how much is fueled by the technology at our disposal whereby we quickly and constantly share our emotionally charged views on the subject.</p>
<p>As for the current mobius strip of discussion surrounding this topic, frankly it really does come down to $$$$. If you are comfortably middle class and are a full pay, well frankly $250K is a whole hecka lota money. If you can write a check…as it appears many who join threads with this related topic can easily do…then no wrangling or justification or clarification is needed. If you are on substantial FA…again…no brainer. However, that part of the population falling into the full pay and it really hurts category is growing. And as those at the top and the bottom discuss and beat this to death, the most vulnerable are those in the middle who can not resist the pull and wind up with unserviceable debt and sad employment prospects.</p>
<p>We advised our kids…try to get a handle on what you find yourself enjoying, what you gravitate towards when left to your own devices. Then, figure out how to fill the coffers (yes, here we are at the $$$ mark yet again) so that you can spend as much time as possible doing what feeds your soul. If you really love horses, culinary arts and traveling (like D) or tinkering, welding, woodworking, theater lighting (like S)… then you have a choice. You can pursue an education which directly ties into these areas and then hope really really hard that at the end you will find someone willing to pay you what it takes with reasonable work hours thus leaving you enough free time to then pursue and fund your passions. Or, you reflect on the reality of today’s economy, align your strengths and talents so that you pursue a (highly probable) marketable degree which still lets you enjoy your day to day work experience but leaves you the time and (yes here we go again) $$ to still do what you love.</p>
<p>Would an elite education provide an easier or more likely road to this end…I don’t know. It seems that at least on this self selecting forum the sides are split. The supporters of elite believe that the experience itself will provide lifelong benefits, some of which are rather difficult to track or explain. The nay sayers don’t believe in the existence of these benefits.</p>
<p>Either way…it comes down to belief and personal experience. But, the discussion carousel will go round and round forever.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>California is actually one of the better states at keeping net prices down for “typical working people” living in the state, even though list prices at UCs are quite high. If you want to see unaffordable state universities for in-state students, try Pennsylvania or Illinois.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1468378-big-variations-state-universities-state-net-prices-middle-income-student.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1468378-big-variations-state-universities-state-net-prices-middle-income-student.html</a></p>
<p>
I’m sorry you find that difficult to believe. I have felt sorry for many kids whose parents, in my opinion, had unreasonable or outdated ideas about college education. And as to whether anybody’s mind is changed, I assume that there are people reading these threads who don’t post, and maybe they learn something from the give and take.</p>
<p>And I’m a bit perplexed by the accusations of “sophistry” on this thread. As I said, I don’t know who is making wild claims for an elite education–rather, those of who have said that we consider it “worth it” have emphasized that we don’t necessarily think that it’s worth it in an ROI sense, but rather that there are benefits that we like. Is it “worth it” to go to a college that has a big-time football program if you are going to be a history major? Obviously it isn’t if you are thinking in terms of ROI. But people use that as a consideration all the time, because they really like big-time football. I don’t see much difference between that and what I’ve been saying here.</p>
<p>
For myself, the answer is no, if you’re talking about elite privates. My dad went to Virginia Tech, and my mom went to Madison. Generally the top students from my small-town high school went to U.Va.–maybe a couple each year. That was where I was assuming I would go, until a friend of mine a year ahead of me went to Princeton. That caused me to take a look at the Ivy League schools. I applied without knowing that much about them, and got into Yale. I still seriously considered going to U.Va., partly because it was a lot cheaper. But I went to Yale, and really liked it a lot.</p>
<p>And that’s why the answer is different for my kids. My wife also went to Yale, and also liked it a lot. We live in a community where there are many people who went to top schools, and the kids went to a magnet high school program in which significant numbers of kids attend highly selective schools (although many also go to the state flagship). Because our experience was so positive, it’s not surprising that we hoped our kids would have the same kind of experience, and they also had the kind of stats and ECs that made it possible. So they both went to Yale, too. They both like it a lot, too.</p>
<p>And we could afford it without unacceptable financial sacrifice.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not sure that annual income of $230,000 or so (about what you need to be full pay at Harvard according to its net price calculator) is merely “comfortably middle class”, as it is likely in the top 3% of household income and top 4% of family income in the US.</p>
<p>
Maybe not you. But if you haven’t read posts on here claiming (or at least implying strongly) that kids will encounter some sort of universal and significant difficulty even finding a job without an elite degree, let alone earning a decent salary, then I think we are reading different websites. I don’t want to dredge up other poster’s posts, but they are there.</p>
<p>But, also, I think defining ROI in purely monetary terms is rather, well, ummm… for lack of a better word, “uneducated.”</p>
<p>I’m not of the cult of elite institutions as some are, here, but I’m also not of the “any school will do” variety, either.</p>
<p>I think there is a point beyond which a kid might be better off considering a bit of time off and self knowledge or trade school, just not MY kid. :p</p>
<p>Which seems also to be a general theme among the anti collegers. Not MY kid, but yours…</p>
<p>
Sure, there are people who think this, but this is uninformed, and I don’t think we’ve seen it on this thread. But even that uninformed view is not entirely wrong–depending on the specific field.</p>
<p>HUNT: Thanks for the candid reply. </p>
<p>I think we parents look at our lives, at our successes, struggles and failures. Often, we look at our immediate families and reflect on their lives and the choices that led them to their current situations.</p>
<p>I went to a lower ranked CSU, DH spent time at Berkeley but did not get his final degree. We both pursued careers in the computer/technical field. I exited my career about to stay home with kiddles 19 years ago. We retired about 10 years ago. The reason we have been able to do so is directly related to my description of the ‘find your passion and figure out how to pay for it’ philosophy we modeled for our kids.</p>
<p>The model they have seen for most of their lives is very low stress parents with loads of free time. Their norm is summers where no one is restricted to a certain number of vacation days We had a home cooked dinner for about 90% of their K-10th grade lives. (after that they had too many activities). Elite Universities were not part of their childhood experience.</p>
<p>I have hesitated to spell this out clearly on such a forum because, yes frankly, it sounds elitist and pompous, that is not the intent. It does tie directly to your reflection on wanting our kids to have the best of what we have experienced. Our path, which I would love for my kids to be able to follow, was achieved via an alternate method.</p>
<p>This doesn’t get us any closer to the ultimate and final answer to the question posed here…but maybe personal reflections is as good as it gets.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Both of my parents grew up in working class backgrounds in a major east coast city – think Archie Bunker and you’ll get the idea.</p>
<p>My father dropped out of hs, joined the army, served in Vietnam and got his GED during that time. When he came back, he did attend college on the GI Bill, but did not finish. He is a classic example of someone who wasn’t book smart, but was incredibly people-smart and rose to the top (ultimately becoming president of a good-size company) due to his people-acumen and the help of mentors who took him under their wing. I know quite a few men like him and believe me, they aren’t concerned with sending their kids to fancy schools. Their kids are inheriting family businesses and they have more than enough money to do what they want to do. They don’t NEED Harvard et al.</p>
<p>My mother was an outstanding student, but attending college (other than night school) just wasn’t in the cards for her family, economically speaking. I know this hurt her a lot and it’s probably part of why it’s so important for me to do this for my kids. She wound up going back to college during the time I was in college, and I couldn’t have been more proud of her.</p>
<p>I wanted to go to an excellent / elite college because I was really smart and highly valued academics. And by that time, my parents were successful enough to be able to send me full-pay. It’s as simple as that. I was and still am very grateful for that opportunity. My younger sister was not as academically inclined and attended an average state flagship u, but has done well for herself.</p>
<p>That’s where I met my husband, and it was simply always a given that we wanted our kids to be able to attend the best colleges they could get into. Which they are doing.</p>
<p>I met my closest set of girlfriends through that college, but it’s by no means a “requirement.” Two of my other close friends went to Marquette and U of Wisconsin/Milwaukee. It’s not like it’s a requirement to be my BFF. </p>
<p>As for my girlfriends, some have kids who are likely destined for elite colleges and others don’t. They have kids of different level abilities and different levels of ability to pay. That’s how it goes. I wish them all well and it doesn’t matter to me one bit as long as they / their kids are happy.</p>