<p>In Wisconsin, most of the top students at my kids’ high school who went to a public university ended up at UW-Madison. Because of reciprocity, some of them did go to University of Minnesota-Twin Cities. Two of mine wanted to go to a place a little warmer so they did head OOS to a public southern university known for their generous merit scholarships. (Some who had more savings etc, did go to some in-state private schools)</p>
<p>It depends on the state, the family, and the student.</p>
<p>Here in Maryland, some top students do end up at the University of Maryland at College Park – by choice, for financial reasons, or because they didn’t get admitted to their preferred schools. But there are many who prefer to go elsewhere if possible – either to highly selective private colleges or to state schools of other states that have more to offer academically than UMCP.</p>
<p>I believe as the years go on, more and more top students will go instate, because private elite colleges are just not affordable. Many years ago, one could get into Ohio State, pretty much by just being an Ohio resident. Well, they have really stepped up their game, and depending on your major, its pretty darn competitive. Several kids at our high school, with very high ACT scores did not get in. Many of the kids here went to either Univ of Cinti, Miami Univ or Ohio State, and these were kids with great stats.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse, I’m also in NYS and a fan of the SUNY system and think it’s underrated. I think there are a number of reasons for the image problem. The lack of clear, designated flagships is one. The fact that most of the campuses are 1960s concrete construction is another. </p>
<p>The trends you see in your high school don’t really seem that reflective of the state as a whole. For the state operated schools (the university centers and the four years, not the community colleges), the overwhelming majority of students are in-state. There are only about 6% out of state and about 9% international students overall.</p>
<p>We are in an excellent and fairly affluent school district upstate. I grew up here, and am a graduate of the same district my children attend. My high school senior applied ED to Geneseo. She has many friends with excellent grades, test scores, extra-curriculars, etc. and many are applying to at least one or two SUNYs in the mix. What I saw with her friends who graduated last year was that many applied to a mix of public and private, and when they sat down and ran the numbers and realized they would still come out with a boatload of debt despite significant merit awards from the privates, they ended up going to a SUNY.</p>
<p>The stigma, if you will, for going to a SUNY is much less for her generation than it was for mine. Almost nobody I knew went to SUNY schools back in the 70s if they had another viable alternative. Admission to some of the better SUNY schools and programs is much more competitive than it used to be. What I see from discussion with other parents is that many of these kids figure they will end up going to grad school/professional school after and don’t see the point in getting burdened with debt for undergrad if they can avoid it. </p>
<p>I am also in upstate NY, though grew up in PA and attended Penn State. It frustrates me that the SUNY system doesn’t have a great reputation, and I don’t know why that is. The reasons mentioned above are probably part of it (no true flagship, and 1960’s architecture). We just drove through Geneseo and loved it. If my D were interested in a liberal arts community it would be at the top of our list. I wonder what drives a college’s reputation. Is it that the research is not cutting edge? Is it a lack of funding? Difficulty getting classes? Students who go to Bing seem to really love it. And the average SAT’s of enrolled students is pretty impressive. So why doesn’t it have a better reputation?</p>
<p>Maybe it’s me, but there are several NE states whose flagship state universities are underrated or just not highly esteemed: New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts. I also don’t hear much about New Hampshire, Maine or Rhode Island. Could it be the presence of so many private elite schools in these states: the Ivies and LACs such as Williams? </p>
<p>Elsewhere, the flagships are draws for top students: UT-Austin, UNC-CH, Ga Tech, Wisconsin-Madison, Michigan, Minnesota, all the UCs, Penn State, Maryland, Washington and so on.</p>
<p>The SUNYs don’t get the very tip top students of NYC, is probably one of the reasons. Though, I know a lot of kids who transferred out of schools like Lehigh and the such after a year due to cost reasons to Bing , Stoneybrook, Albany. No one I know to Buffalo. These are good students who did well that first year at college as well. Friends enjoying SUNYs, money too tight for family, so they transferred. Over the last 5 years, I know a dozen offhand who did this.</p>
<p>But though there may be more kids going to the SUNYs now, more of the high stats kids, I’m not seeing it here, and it’s not bringing up the test scores like it did for say, Wm&Mary in Va. which I consider Bing and Genseo to resemble. And frankly, Bing and Geneseo simply do not have the size to make that much of an impact on the system as a whole.</p>
<p>I was very impressed with Buffalo’s curriculums, books, classes and offering as well as amenities. Really, it’s all there, but it is in Buffalo, but at about 1/3 the price of nearby Syracuse, I don’t get it that it isn’t a major player. More OOS draw is needed, IMO. </p>
<p>The international students certainly have discovered the sciences at Buffalo. I was surprised how many are there. But it still isn’t getting the top students in NY the way the schools should.</p>
<p>I also think geography has something to do with it. In the Western states, such as Texas, even the state flagship could be 6-8 hours away from home. Going out of state (to publics or private) is a major endeavour involving lots of travel, etc. </p>
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<p>Possibly, but the elite schools around there does not explain why even good-but-not-elite students often want to go anywhere other than their in-state public schools (e.g. NJ residents wanting to go anywhere but Rutgers, where “anywhere” includes other large publics like Penn State, Delaware, Maryland, etc., so it is not like they are looking for the small school experience).</p>
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<p>Lack of funding over the decades is definitely a part of the issue, SUNY system/schools being founded only several decades ago, and administrative neglect/bungling due to Albany politics. </p>
<p>Also, as someone who is a born and bred NYker who grew up in the '80s and '90s, Geneseo’s topflight rep is only around a decade plus old. </p>
<p>Back when I was in HS/college, Geneseo didn’t have a great academic rep as it does now. In fact, from what I recalled, it was easier to get into than Stonybrook and Bing by stats and seemed to draw classmates at/near the bottom of our graduating class. Back then, the top SUNYs were Bing and Stonybrook followed by Buffalo and Albany being known as the party campus of the 4 SUNY university centers. </p>
<p>The party aspect of Albany was one key reason a lot of HS classmates ended up transferring out after a year or two.</p>
<p>As for students’ perceptions of Bing, nearly everyone I knew who attended Bing hated the campus/college town and regarded the college experience as one to be endured, not enjoyed due to those two factors along with the cliquishness of student groups(Long Island HSs, NYC high schools, upstate HS, etc). </p>
<p>In fact, they are concerned about another friend who is considering doing his PhD there due to the school’s town/campus environment, lack of funding, and relatively low rankings for his field(#50). Bad combination if one’s goal is to land a tenure-track job in a highly competitive academic job market where degree pedigree based on strength of department* and expectations one received full funding from the department** are standard prereqs. </p>
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<li>Not necessarily elite universities overall. For instance, in many areas of Philosophy at the PhD level, Rutgers and UPitt are top 3 schools alongside NYU and far outrank their Ivy/elite U counterparts.<br></li>
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<p>** Failure to receive full funding from department or equivalent scholarships at the PhD level is often regarded by hiring committees as a sign the PhD student and soon-to-be-graduate was regarded by his/her department’s admission committee as an academic dilettante and thus, not worth a fully-funded scholarship. </p>
<p>In general? Probably. What will feel like “normal” will depend on your circle. In our circle, very few kids go to the public universities… largely because most of our friends are in the arts and they opt for private schools or OOS publics with stronger arts programs. Our affluent friends hardly even consider the UC’s or CSU’s… maybe throw in one as a safety. Our more middle class and poorer friends tend to get better deals through private with good financial aid or the CSU system which has some excellent schools but usually seen as lesser than the UC’s.</p>
<p>The term “flagship” is a little complicated in some states too. In California, I think Berkeley and UCLA are considered the “flagships” but Davis, UCSD, UCSB… they are high ranking with top programs that lots of high achievers flock to. Would San Diego State and Cal Poly be considered flagships of the CSU system? Does it work that way with two public systems? Not sure.</p>
<p>@slackermomMD @ucbalumnus New England kids want to go to any flagship that is not there own. Many of the flagships are respected by folks from other states. UVM and UNH are stylish choices for wealthy families. UMass, Rutgers and UConn are respected academically. Maine is off the beaten path so off the radar but good for engineering. URI doing a complete renovation of its engineering program ($125 million) so they will have that to add to Oceanography and Pharmacy. But basically, especially from a teenager’s prospective, it is cooler to go to a different flagship in NE. </p>
<p>You need to keep in mind that if you are a HS student in Cranston, RI, it’s not just that when you get to URI you will be surrounded by a lot of kids from your HS. If you were on the debate team; played basketball; took dance lessons in Providence, etc. you are going to be surrounded by kids that you’ve known your entire life. Rhode Island is a small state.</p>
<p>It’s easy to be snarky and to laugh at the unsophisticated kid from Rhode Island who would rather be in Maine than his or her own flagship. But we think nothing of telling a kid from Dallas to spread his wings at UT Austin (and NOT stay in the DFW metro area). Why are these situations different?</p>
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<p>UT-Austin has far stronger overall academic reputation than Maine’s state universities. One illustration of this I knew firsthand was being shocked that an elementary education major can use a 9th grade-level algebra course to fulfill the college’s math requirements. </p>
<p>Found this out while tutoring a friend’s ex who despite being allowed to use a HS level class to fulfill a university quant requirement still needed much tutoring which did little good as she ended up not taking it seriously and having to take it again after flunking the course. Later heard from my friend that she only passed by the skin of her teeth because the Prof felt badly enough for her to award her extra unearned points as without them, she’d end up flunking for the second time. </p>
<p>I grew up in a small town in RI and almost never saw anyone from my high school at URI. There are 12,000 students at URI and maybe 40 from my class went to URI. Actually, gearbot #1 is an RI kid looking at Maine because it will be probably cheaper with state of the art labs and research in his area of interest. Gearbots #2 and #3 will have state of the art engineering facilities at state flagship (2018 completion) and a top international engineering program so that will make a difference. NE is just so small, affluent and competitive.</p>
<p>Well, I 'm not laughing one bit I’d love to see these flagships gain lustre. The way private school prices are rising, it may be happening soon. As another poster noted, more NYers are considering SUNYs these days. I saw the transition too. A number of kids in my son’s class have SUNY on their lists and last year a number of them chose it over other schools due to price. For those in the top 10% of the class, and will major in tech, it’s tuition FREE. Something difficult to ignore. Leaves a lot of leeway for grad, prof programs or just getting a start on life.</p>
<p>@blossom And of course the irony (just like the NY story) is that he will probably see more RI locals out of state since almost no one is staying in state from his class.</p>
<p>As to the general question, in 2013 we were very surprised at the number of high achieving students who went to our state flagship. (This trend repeated in 2014) Those who went to the state flagship were mostly admitted to the Honors College. Those who didn’t make it into the Honors College went to small, not quite so elite privates. The competition was pretty intense for the Honors College. We are enormously thankful our state flagship in Maryland has a dynamic Honors College, and D was admitted to the most selective program, so she is in very good company.</p>
<p>D was inducted into the National Honor Society in 9th grade. Part of the ceremony was for seniors to state their college choice and major when they received their cords. The number of kids going to elite privates was truly impressive. So in four years this changed drastically, and I think it’s because of the upper middle class college squeeze. It’s a conservative community, and people don’t want to load up their kids with debt. I think that’s seen as more of a disadvantage than graduating from a state university.</p>
<p>As to the value of Honors Colleges, it does depends on the University. We are extremely happy with Maryland’s program. There can be much more advising/mentoring available, more service opportunities, internships and more targeted opportunities to learn within one’s desired field. At Maryland, the Integrated Life Sciences program, one of the programs inside the Honors College, provides students with a cohesive living and learning environment, and based on my D’s experience would highly recommend to anyone interested in pursuing medicine or medical research.</p>
<p>You need to check on each university to see what advantage the honors college will offer. Some offer no more than early class registration. You can check out the book ‘A Review of Fifty Public University Honors Programs’ by John Willingham for more information.</p>
<p>OP,
It depends if presitge is of any consequence to future career.
For some career path, presitge of your UG may not be important and on top of this fact, the path is extremely expansive. So, to lower the cost, very self-reliant top caliber valedictorians may choose in-state public and not even a flagship. Tehy will recieve free or close to free UG education and migh have financial support of the family for the Grad. School. I have seen many pre-meds and more so with physician parent, going this path based on the fact that parent was paying student loans for a very long time and does not want the same for kids.<br>
On the other hand, getting into some flagships may not be easy at all. Take U of Michigan. Why not go there if you are in-state? It is in top 5 for many fields.
Frankly, my D. and all of her pre-med friends has chosen to go to in-state and free family finances for Med. School. They will not have student loans. This group consitute only about 25% of Medical students. 75% of Medical Students will graduate with some loans (and some could be very very high). And primary reason for it is that they went to the expensive UG because they wanted to be at prestigious college. However, Med. Schools do not care about the name of the UG, they care about your college GPA, MCAT score, medical ECs and somewhat social personality.</p>
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<p>This is very much YMMV depending on financial status of the applicant’s family and other factors. </p>
<p>For most of my HS classmates who came from working/lower-middle class families, the respectable/elite private colleges ended up being a far better financial deal than the state/local public colleges. </p>