Is it pointless these days for unhooked, high stat kids to apply to T40 schools?

College Search & Lists
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There are a bunch of colleges where being high stats is going to go a long way.

The women’s colleges (if you are a woman). Stellar academics but no hooks is not a problem. Will you get into Wellesley AND Bryn Mawr AND Smith AND Mt Holyoke? Can’t say. But really high stats and no hooks is usually enough to get you in to one or two.

The Catholic colleges (whether or not you are Catholic). And this depends on how you define “Top 40”. But once you look past Georgetown- and in some cases ND depending on your geography, a high stats kid is going to punch above his or her weight, especially if the goal is an intellectual environment and not just the name. Holy Cross and Fordham are two places (I don’t know their “rankings” right now and I don’t care) where a kid can get a solid, rigorous, “classical” education in a wide range of fields with some very impressive faculty.

Any college now in the top 60 or so which has a new president. Vanderbilt was candid a decade ago that being Jewish and High Stats was enough. New President, new strategy. Any college which is changing its pricing strategy- it’s probably 20 years since Rice raised its tuition to be level with its peer institutions-- but the first few years of the new pricing strategy were great years to be a high stats applicant. And although these colleges are still competitive, being rural and located in a state with a net population loss (usually runs in tandem with fewer HS graduates) is likely to mean increased interest in a high stats kid. Maine, Vermont…you see where I’m going. Is Middlebury anyone’s safety school? No. But the trendline on colleges in these states means that a highly interested student with high stats is not “wasting” an application (assuming the kid is interested in actually attending).

An issue to be aware of with the top 40 (however you define it) is “bunching”. Which is something the private schools do so well. They are going to “guide” the top kids across a wider range of colleges- that’s built in to how they advise their seniors. A big public HS isn’t going to invest the time in worrying that every single top kid who wants to major in engineering is applying to Penn and Cornell, and every single top kid who wants to major in CS is applying to Stanford and MIT.

No. At a private school, these kids would be spread out among JHU, Brown (punches above its weight in CS), Michigan,. The kid who says engineering but likely is going to major in math would be focused on Swarthmore and Harvey Mudd, and the kids who are likely going to get rejected from Cornell engineering because their stats are meaningfully lower than the top of the class will be getting all sorts of hoopla from the college counselor about RPI.

You can do this at home! Don’t let your kid fall in love with the “flavor of the month” college that all the friends are excited about. If everyone is in love with Brandeis, get your kid excited about Wash U. If the Val and Sal are both applying to Amherst, your kid can be applying to Haverford. If the cool “match college” next year is Tulane, then focus on Emory.

You do not need to be hooked. But you do need to be smart and strategic about applications, and you need to be thoughtful about each and every college on the list. If your kid is ranked 10th in a big, competitive HS, and the top 9 kids are all applying to Harvard (and some are athletes, some are legacies, and some are wealthy and generous) I would save my time and money. But that’s one college… being hookless is much less of a problem the further you get away from the single digit admission colleges.

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It’s a very simple matter of statistics. There are many many kids applying for a small number of seats. So, daft more are going to denied than accepted.

A 5% acceptance rate means that out of all of the applications, most of which are going to be stellar, are going to be rejected. That rate is higher than the real number because hooked applicants are included and there is no telling how many of those applicants are hooked.

But there are applicants without hooks who are accepted in the applicant pool.

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Well, you haven’t defined what a “traditional” kid is. On the East coast, it might be “tradition” for high stats students from all backgrounds to go to boarding school, apply primarily to Ivies and top LACs, and have a reasonable expectation of being admitted to one.

But perhaps your understanding of “traditional” is a white kid with top grades, who plays a varsity sport or an instrument, is on student council, edits the yearbook, has a part time job, and attends a large suburban public high school in California.

Or maybe you’re thinking of a different kind of kid altogether.

Regardless, what everyone is saying here is true. (1) Stats matter: Single digit admissions means almost all applicants are rejected. Even if the school primarily takes the type of student you are talking about, the odds are terrible. (2) Stats be damned. Figure out if you are the student this school is looking for. If you are, then submit an application that demonstrates the incredible value in talent/character/achievement/vision that you are sure to add to the school in question. In other words, don’t sell yourself as “traditional.”

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I wish we could have threads where this sort of question is asked, but without reference to “high stats.” People act as if that’s the crowning factor and ignore the rest of what shapes your chances.

You have a long app to fill out, not just resume-like lists of gpa/scores, courses, activities, but also written responses. How you answer has strong weight in making you a contender or not. No matter your stats.

But people misunderstand. I often doubt they even try to learn what makes you a match. Or not. People talk about “being yourself” or not “jumping through hoops,” etc. BUT you’re applying. Why wouldn’t you go for deeper understanding, what that school likes and wants to find? Don’t treat it as a lottery. Don’t assume what makes you a big deal in your one high school is all it takes. That’s high school, not what a T40 wants to see.

Same problem with Naviance or others’ anecdotes. YOU don’t see their actual apps. You can bet adcoms do.

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I think what’s pointless is the lottery approach. Soooo many kids now are submitting 20+ apps. And yes, there are some kids who are doing it in search of the best FA, but I doubt that’s true of the vast majority. It’s not a lottery. Agree with others who say it’s all about showing how you fit and demonstrating that you get what they are looking for.

An unhooked kid in our district got into Harvard about three years ago. He applied early (think SCEA didn’t yet exist.) He clearly showed them what they wanted to see.

Kids keep applying to more and more schools, with no clue, or care, that Harvard is not the same as Columbia. They make the problem worse. Then they come here and lament that they “only” got into Rice or something. Or they only applied to tippy tops, no matches, and their local state U as their safety, that they don’t like and don’t care about. They are dumbfounded when the safety ends up being the only option.

During the first two weeks of April, there will be many posts all asking some version of the same question: why didn’t I get in? Well, in a nutshell, it’s because you didn’t bother to show them that you get what they are looking for and/or because you failed to understand that there are factors beyond your control (recruited athletes, URM, etc…) and your competition is just too fierce. You might want to read this for more perspective: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/2167979-why-its-so-hard-to-get-into-an-under-15-acceptance-rate-school-p1.html

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I suggest you also consider very, very carefully where to use an early application. It can provide a boost, but if deferred, the student is then competing in the RD round at all the other colleges which are already half full themselves. I have also noticed that students fall in love with their early acceptances. They begin to see themselves there, plan on attending-soon it becomes the first choice, even if it was just one of several EA applications.

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If she doesn’t see the benefit of working hard in high school, then she shouldn’t. If she doesn’t like the work or feels she is missing out on something she’d rather do than school work, she should do that --and see what her options are come college application time.

Really, are all these Harvard hopefuls now going to attend community college? No, they are going to go to schools that still want them to have 4.0/1550 stats (and may give them merit money for those). The answer is to open up the list of schools to include those that will love those high stats. If your daughter loves the flagship, great. Each of mine went to the one and only school she applied to. No rat race, no disappointment.

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My unhooked S19 had an overall strong application and he put good effort into his essays. The essays reflected who he was and what he would bring to the schools. However, I don’t think we really knew how he could demonstrate fit with the particular schools to which he applied. He did the best he could and tried to get an idea of what the very selective schools wanted (the ones he also liked for particular reasons), but we couldn’t have really predicted the results in any meaningful way. In the end, he was accepted to three top universities (including two with RD acceptance rates under 7%) and some top LACs. It definitely wasn’t pointless and it worked out well for him. But it could have easily turned out differently and we had a good backup plan.

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It shouldn’t be so hard to believe many applicants thrive on the pressures of being a top student, stretching, and growing. Not all see it as a rat race, any more than doing the work to later land a great job at a great company is somehow so wrong.

Imo, rather than label it so critically, we should simply acknowledge many kids aren’t interested in that degree of planning and effort. And they should be able to choose colleges to apply to which offer the right balance for them.

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@lookingforward is so right folks.

Please take the time to link to the Dave Berry thread which leads you to several videos on this subject of how files are read with former admissions deans and now counselors.

They blew past the academically qualified “check mark“ in three minutes and into all of the other matters considered in the application.

The dean from penn and Dartmouth showed how completely differently they looked at applications.

The ability in ten minutes or less to get someone to want to “root” for you in the process and to stand out. It’s was eye opening.

And it’s not the 1520 compared to the 1580 we think. They determine quickly if you are high stats and then dig in to the other essential parts of the story.

It should be called “how to become a real and interesting human in ten minutes” and not an academic robot.

That’s what I learned.

We don’t want to seem to believe it here. But that’s what seems to be the case.

They are really looking for fit. They are building a mosaic. You’re auditioning for one specific role in campus. Whatever your combination of attributes looks like. That’s the group you are compared to in the end. Once all those roles are filled they move on, even if your stats and accomplishments are better, the other roles are filled by a different group.

It was also fascinating to learn how many top schools hire part time readers for the application season. They have good and bad days. Morning or afternoon reads can make a difference too.

The last interesting thing or observation I discovered about ED. The numbers are so much smaller they have twice as much time with each file or more. The readers are also all excited and fresh.

However by the final stretch of RD many applications can blur together. And they are also burnt out and a bit tired.

Also, your cool EC or personal story may be a wow in ED. By the time RD is finished it might be the 10th time they’ve read the same basic thing and the wow factor is completely gone.

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I assume by T40 you mean USNWR top 40. This includes a wide variety of colleges with a wide variety of different colleges with admission systems. For example, Tulane is top 40 and offers guaranteed admission for in state applicants with a 3.6 GPA and 31 ACT. UCD is top 40 and has a 75% admit rate for applicants in the top GPA group. If you combine top GPA with high scores, I’d expect the admit rate to be much higher. They also don’t consider several key traditional hooks. Similar statements could be made for many other T40 schools.

The specific chance of a particular student being admitted depends on many factors besides just stats and hooks, so there isn’t enough information to draw a general conclusion. Some unhooked high stat kids have an extremely high chance of acceptance at many T40 schools. Some have little chance. If you give more information about the particular kid and colleges/programs he is considering, posters can give a more specific answer.

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@privatebanker
Can you link to the Dave berry thread you mentioned. I searched for it but found a lot of threads and none seemed to be the one you referred to. Thanks!

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Sorry all it CC Admin Sorrin’s thread

“These podcasts can help as you navigate essays, applications and more. https://insights.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions-podcasts”

I searched these but the Dartmouth penn and one from the young woman I think from Smith originally was good. It’s been a few months. They are long. I only watched one on the essay. I hunted for the insight pods.

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Ok one more help with links. Once you open the link scroll the article to the header where it’s says “inside the admissions office”. Subscribe to those pods.

Choose the one that says “what it takes to get into a top school”.

The next one is “what a penn admissions officer thinks”

Two down from that is the “an admissions officer discusses ED” or something like that.

These were really very good.

There’s dozens of others if you subscribe to there YouTube channel. It’s the social media arm for their private counseling company but the content is excellent and free.

It’s was eye opening for me. Or reinforced things i have learned here but resisted.

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Sorry last post on this subject. No just went back and listened to one again. I would point to the one near the bottom of the page once you get to the pods I referenced. It’s called “the day in life of an Ivy admissions reader”. It was really really helpful.

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OP asked a few questions. Here’s my 2 cents.

  • when I think of Top 20 colleges, rankings like Forbes are much better than USNews since the former considers ALL colleges in their rankings not just national universities, the latter has separate rankings for LACs and very good regional colleges.
  • yes, the “average excellent” applicant can get into a highly selective college but since admissions are “holistic”, high stats and test scores only get you in the door, all of the other factors like ECs, essays, LORs, good fit, filling institutional needs, etc get you an acceptance.
  • applying early might help, even though the “hooked” kids will be in this group. And even if deferred, you might get another bite at the apple.
  • “package” your kid so the adcom will go to bat for you in the admission committee meetings.
  • I don’t believe admissions to highly selective colleges is a “lottery”. The people making the admissions decisions are professionals who do this for a living, year in year out. They know what they are looking for and seek out applicants who have it.
  • Don’t apply to Top 20s because they are prestigious, find colleges that are a good fit academically, financially and socially. My D only applied to one Top 20 college and no ivies as they were not a good fit for her.
  • I think LORs are a key component of elite admissions as they corroborate the students admissions file. Choose your recommenders carefully/strategically.
  • it doesn’t have to be a rat race, do you and be true to yourself. There are colleges out there that will want you to attend. If you don’t want to take 12 AP classes, then don’t. If you only want to take 3 years of a foreign language, that’s ok. Or drop a varsity sport, no problem.
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I live in an area where there is a lot of concerted effort from families and schools to get their kids into these top rated schools. Often the focus is the top HPYSMC, the top half dozen. I’ve become friendly with a private Admissions Counselor over the years, whose main job is to help present applications so that the chances are optimized. Yeah, sort of like the now terribly disgraced, criminal Singer who was downright illegal, deceptive and bribed to optimize results. The enterprises I know that I know that I know admissions counseling have become nearly as common as Private SAT and AP around here.

There is a huge difference between chances of admissions to top40 and top 6. An excellent student, yes that high stats student is highly likely to get into a top 40 school. Getting into that top 6 is a whole other story. In fact getting into top dozen is very difficult. As is getting into top 20. It’s all about the numbers. But, according to two full time private counselors I know, there is a chance element in all of this as well Even as they well know the admissions process, focus on each of their client/student’s application, there is an unpredictability in the process High stats are very much needed. A Val or Sal with a top difficulty curriculum and high test score very much has an advantage right off the bat. Their company statistics show that clearly. The stereotypical Tiger parent is right in with their mission. It does work. But “work” does not mean a huge chance of getting into the most selective schools. It just means upping your chances in the highly competitive pool. So, yes, Academic stats count, And they are the area one can often control. Other things are often out of the control of the student and family. Test prep is an integral part of getting into a highly selective school as well as for getting merit money.

When you are talking about the half of the schools in Top 40 that are less selective in admissions stats, I think top students have an excellent chance of getting admitted to one of those schools. The single digit accepts, just by the virtue of those single digits, are lottery tickets even with well crafted applications coached by experienced counselors.

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“Lottery” implies you buy a ticket (you apply to colleges) and have same odds as everyone else who bought one (or applied there.). But you never do, if you don’t hit a mark with your app, the whole package.

It’s uncertain, in the end, not because it’s unfair in some way. It starts with your own level of “informed” and then how you create your package (and that’s often when you start high school, not in junior year when your “dreams” accelerate, you get desperate, and start endless chance threads.) Then there are factors beyond your control.

How many applicants have any idea what the task is, in the frst place? Or the random variables? If they did, would we have so many asking, “Is this good enough?,” or “Can I skip foreign language?” or proclaiming their ECs are sooo freaking special. Or more, that just goes to show they have barely looked at the info?

No, too many stop at their stats, even finally get a decent standardized score and then their homing devices suddenly point to the top 10 or 20. (But they use the total SAT or ACT Composite, not even the breakdowns the top holistic colleges look at.)

Meanwhile, the top colleges want kid who can explore, think, apply the knowledge gained. If you don’t want to play the game, then just don’t. But admit it’s your choice.

If OP doesn’t know anything about those “top 40,” how can he present a good app? That would be shooting blind. And anecdotes of some rare kid who didn’t, but got in, can hardly be helpful.

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Honestly, it seems difficult for me for 17/18 years olds to determine what a college across the country is looking for in applicants. When you go to a college web site, it isn’t exactly easy to get a feel for the place. A student might be able to get an idea of good fit from a guidance counselor. A middle or upper middle class student may be able to ask their parent’s friends what they liked about their college or where their older kids are going to school and why. Students rely heavily on ratings because they are clear and organized. You can say that chemistry is my favorite class and these colleges have the best chemistry departments. Then, you draw a circle on the map of how far your are willing to go and start investigating further.

It is also difficult for a 17/18 year old to even understand how they are different from the the group of students applying to any particular college. This is especially true for students who have lived their lives in one town and have not traveled. I know retrospectively that I grew up in a family different from most of my peers. Then, I learned in college how my family differed from the families of many of my college friends. The advice to write truthfully is good because if you can pull it off, others will see how yuh are unique even if you don’t.

I guess this is my long winded way of staying the figuring out fit from afar without even a broad context for what college is even like is not all that easy for a student on their own.

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@lookingforward. When your right your right. Most families overlook what you are talking about and just apply on stats. Then amazed when little Johnny is rejected from most schools he applied to. Maybe gets into the local good state school.

I am helping a family friend now. Her daughter is an amazing tippy top high stat kid and just such a lovely person.

But I had to spend 2 hours trying to get the mother to understand what a true safety is. She kept asking me about reach then another reach then another.

Yes, need to determine what the actual fit is for the child and what the school is actually asking for and what they want to see.

The main problem I see is with kids applying to so many schools now the family doesn’t have the time to “detail” each school.